Problems with Homosexuality & Sex Ed

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

The algorithm for this thread and line of thinking should start out like this: Is homosexuality an acceptable practice or is it an unacceptable one? This is what this topic boils down to anyway. If it is unacceptable, then you do not cross go, you don?t collect the $200, the discussion ends there, and the schools (or anyone for that matter) shouldn?t teach that it is acceptable.

If it is acceptable, then you could say that the schools are not doing anything inappropriate, other than maybe wasting time that could be spent on more appropriate uses. The answer to the above algorithm is based on your line of thought. Either your line of thinking is in line with men and worldly ways, or it is in line with God?s ways.

By now you have probably guessed where I am going with this, and yes your line of thinking should be in line with God?s. God?s word states that homosexuality is a detestable sin that will be punishable by the second death, which is a life eternal in hell.

Here are some of the things God has to say about homosexuality:

Gen. 19:5-7
5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. (NIV)

Jude 1:7
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (NIV)

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (NIV)

Leviticus 20:13
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (NIV)

Romans 1:24-27
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator?who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (NIV)

Corinthians 6:8-10
8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (NIV)

It seems to me that God is pretty clear about His stance, and what our stance on homosexuality should be. IT IS WRONG!!!

Jesus has plenty to say about homosexuality.

John 1:1 and 1:14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (NIV)
(underline and bold mine for emphasis)

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (NIV)
(underline and bold mine for emphasis)

*All the scriptures that I listed above are from God, which is also Jesus.

Homosexuality is a sinful act, and no one should be stating otherwise. We should not be tolerant of those that choose to follow this type of lifestyle either. Tolerance is the act of allowing something, a kind of disregard if you will. Instead we should deal with those that practice homosexuality with love and compassion. Jesus would speak to those that practice homosexuality with love and compassion, a love that would let them know the truth and that what they are doing is wrong. God?s message is not about tolerance:

Matthew 10
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw?
36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (NIV, Jesus speaking)

God?s message is about love, and His desire for all of us to come to Him. The bottom line is that if you reject God?s message (those that practice homosexuality do reject it) you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Love and compassion for all man should be taught to the youth of today, and not tolerance. This responsibility falls on their parents first and foremost.

22

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
A whole bunch of religious stuff…
[/quote]

Hmm, maybe they should only teach this in catholic schools then, since it really won’t matter… as long as they repent.

23

[quote]vroom wrote:
Wolfman155 wrote:
A whole bunch of religious stuff…

Hmm, maybe they should only teach this in catholic schools then, since it really won’t matter… as long as they repent.[/quote]

You actually make a point, but in the end, it all comes down to it not being the school’s place to instill religious values in the children. I am more interested in exactly how much time is being spent in the average school day talking about crap like this. I don’t remember classes devoted to bullshit that had nothing to do with a lesson. I think tolerance is a good lesson to learn. The military even has seminars on the subject.

Many of the problems in our current society are based on one group feeling as if they have the social/moral/financial advantage and that anyone else is beneath them. It takes place on all sides. However, to actually take the time to promote homosexuality as a normal biological variable may be a mistake considering there is no proof whether it is a biological or mental condition. Right now, it simply is. Teach kids not to hate based on differences, but stay out of the realm of religious debate or unproven biological deviances.

24

Looks like this thread has kinda gotten off topic and is now veering towards whether or not schools should teach sex ed at all. I guess I just don’t agree with you guys at all. Sexual reproduction and sexually transmitted diseases are fair game to discuss in biology class.

You guys are trying to say that teaching children the basics of how organisms (including humans) sexually reproduce and transmit disease is somehow “raising your kids”? Understanding how a virus replicates and spreads through fluid transimission is raising your kids?! Are you nuts? I must be either missing something, or misunderstanding…

The only way I can see “sex ed” as “raising your kids for you” is if it focused on moral reprocussions of sex, or how they should feel about it, instead of hard science (which is the problem with the program that this thread is about). That’s why I am against “abstinence only” sex education, because it intends to teach our children moral values instead at the expense of hard science.

As a side note, it’s funny that conservatives complain about schools “raising our kids”, but champion a form of sex ed that empowers our school system to teach our kids a system of values at the expense of science. Ridiculous (to me at least).

25

[quote]wek wrote:
mica617 wrote:
On a personal note, I am sick and tired of schools teaching my children that homosexuality is ok and must be accepted, while blatanly pushing that any heterosexual behavior is wrong and must be suppressed.
Accept gay people- fine, but HOLDING HANDS WITH A GIRL?!? ARE YOU NUTS?!?

Now before anyone says I’m a gay-bashing bigot, understand that my beef is mostly with the inbalance between heterosexual and homosexual tolorance in regards to the public school system.

If you are gay, that’s not for me to judge and it’s your choice. If it’s wrong, then you’ll find that out in the end. Untill then, enjoy your life on Earth! We’ll get along great as long as you don’t actively PUSH it on me ( I have a few friends who are homosexual).

The reason you’d see more of a push for homosexual tolerance than you would for heterosexual tolerance is really a no brainer. There is more INtolerance toward homosexuals than there is toward heterosexuals. I don’t know about you, but i’ve never been teased for being straight.

mica617 wrote:
I don’t agree with it being right and have my beliefs, but hose are mine and you are entitled to your own beliefs.
I do, however, have the right to tell the school not to push it on my children… or I should, anyway.

What I’d like to know is how the school system is “pushing” homosexuality on your children. My school does nothing that could even be considered pushy as far as accepting others is concerned.
[/quote]

Wek,

It’s not as much pushing homosexuality as it is pushing that it it an acceptable lifestyle and should be tolerated, yet catch a boy and GIRL kissing or holding hands and detention slips get passed out in the blink of an eye.

The big beef (for me, anyway) is that it is NOT the school’s place to tell children whether it is or isn’t acceptable behavior. It goes AGAINST many parents (especially here in the Bible belt) viewpoints and values. It is the parents right to raise their children with respect to values.

I fully believe in separation of Church and State, but neither should interfere with each other, as well. If a parent wants to raise their children with the Christian ideology that homosexuality IS a sin and IS an abomination, then that is their right and the schools shouldn’t contradict them. Stick to the 5+5=10’s, languages, music, arts, etc and leave morality to the parents.

As for the parents that DON’T do their job and take an active role in raising their kids- that shouldn’t affect, much less contradict, the raising of parents that DO take an active role.

26

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
Either your line of thinking is in line with men and worldly ways, or it is in line with God?s ways.

By now you have probably guessed where I am going with this, and yes your line of thinking should be in line with God?s. Homosexuality is a sinful act, and no one should be stating otherwise.
[/quote]

Exactly. For once someone on here is right on the money. This country was clearly formed on Christian values, and as such Christianity should be recognized as the national religion. The good Lord’s mandates should be written into federal law, and NO ONE should be allowed to state that homosexually is anything other than sinful. How this government and country can turn its cheek on the one and only true Lord and Savior is beyond me.

27

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Wolfman155 wrote:
Either your line of thinking is in line with men and worldly ways, or it is in line with God?s ways.

By now you have probably guessed where I am going with this, and yes your line of thinking should be in line with God?s. Homosexuality is a sinful act, and no one should be stating otherwise.

Exactly. For once someone on here is right on the money. This country was clearly formed on Christian values, and as such Christianity should be recognized as the national religion. The good Lord’s mandates should be written into federal law, and NO ONE should be allowed to state that homosexually is anything other than sinful. How this government and country can turn its cheek on the one and only true Lord and Savior is beyond me.[/quote]

The government shouldn’t be taking positions on religious interpretations at all. And that’s the point.

It’s less clear whether secondary schools should try to engage in instruction on controversial moral issues that tend to divide on religious lines. While it might be that it CAN be done constitutionally, I highly doubt it would be. And that would be aside from the political shit-storm it would engender.I’m of the opinion they should stick to academics.

28

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I agree with you for the most part. I am also interested in how you feel about the debate of teaching the concept of Creationism in school. There seems to be some debate on this lately.

Without getting too far off topic, I think they should present all the scientific information they have on the origins of the universe, say that no one knows for sure what force was/is driving the development of life, and leave it at that.

That’s in school up to high school – in college it should be open for discussion and/or debate.

Professor X wrote:
One point also needs to be made clear that I don’t think it is the school’s duty to point out anyone’s sexuality. That alone can be confusing to some kid who is going through puberty or may have other social issues. I think, for the most part, schools should distance themselves from the issue aside from making very broad generalizations as far as tolerance.

I agree. I don’t like this for two reasons: 1) I don’t want schools taking over moral instruction responsibilities from parents; and 2) I don’t want schools putting resources toward political indoctrination when the kids can’t read or do simple math.

They can punish overt negative behavior (name calling, etc.) without rolling out the indoctrination stuff. Maybe then they would focus on teaching academics.

[/quote]

I have to say, this is one of the few things that I agree with BostonBarrier about. Kids just dont have the thought process to be able to differentiate a very philosophical question like wether or not there is a God, and then try to meld that with ideas about evolution. Leave that for high school, when they can understand better.

I also feel teaching creationism is still a dangerous thing in a public school. Hence the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, where the great debate was had between Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan. Darrow sums up all my arguments in a well spoken soliloquy…check it out anywhere. its interesting to see two great minds duel.

29

At what age does a child develop a mind and start to form their own opinions? I mean, when can you trust a child to have taken what you’ve given them or rejected it already anyway? Why should they never be introduced to the opinions of others?

I don’t think the school should get into morals and religions in any particular manner, but I do think that if the school is going to be the place that people learn to think, that students should be subjected to ideas and allowed to actually think about them.

My job is to help my children make the right choices when they face the cold hard world, which they may or may not do as well as I’d hope, not to shield them from reality.

30

To Moriarty:
I don’t like the sarcastic tone of your reply at all. I think that this falls under the comments that Chris Shurgart has been making about intelligent posts, which I think that your post falls very short of.

This country is great because everyone has religious freedom to choose what they want to believe. I don’t believe that the government should take the Bible and make it federal law, but you can be sure that I will vote for people that will pass these types of laws. I guess I should rephrase the ?and no one should state otherwise? comment that I made. I should have stated that while anyone can say that homosexuality is right, THEY WOULD BE WRONG.

That is also what is great about this country, we have the right to choose anyway we wish, whether it is right or wrong. Here is the logic process that you used to write this post: 1) the beliefs here are not in line with mine, 2) there is some religious stuff in this post, and I can’t have that, 3) so, I must make a sarcastic post that makes this guys beliefs seem fanatical. I think that you could have done a better job with the objections you had to some of my comments.

In General:
Maybe my reply was a a little drawn out, but at the same time I think that it explained where I might be coming from, and where others would be coming from as well. What really burned me up was the Myths and Facts excerpt of the curriculum in the original thread. I do not agree with this information being passed off as educational material in our schools. I agree with some of the other posts so far, stick to the facts and leave the morality issues to the parents. It does seem like there is an agenda to push that homosexuality is an acceptable choice, and I don’t think that this should be the job of schools to tell students what is right and wrong in regards to this matter.

Here is the main point that I would like to make, when it all boils down it shouldn’t matter what is being taught in school. If you are a good parent you will know what the kids are being taught, and you will be able to address these issues with your child at the appropriate time. Whether or not the school system changes their policy or not, you will be able to teach them what you believe to be truthful. A good parent enables their children to come up with answers of their own as well. Good parents will empower their children to search for their own answers, and to come up with what they believe is the truth.

31

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Exactly. For once someone on here is right on the money. This country was clearly formed on Christian values, and as such Christianity should be recognized as the national religion. The good Lord’s mandates should be written into federal law, and NO ONE should be allowed to state that homosexually is anything other than sinful. How this government and country can turn its cheek on the one and only true Lord and Savior is beyond me.[/quote]

My God.

We recognize that the rights outlined in the Constitution of our nation are rights inherent and inalienable, rights we possess by no qualification other than our status as human beings.

These rights include, but are not limited to, the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness.

From these rights we draw others enumerated in the bill of rights: freedoms of speech, worship, assembly, press, petition, self-armament, and trial by jury, to name a few. Furthermore, the ninth amendment states that the enumeration of these rights shall not be construed to deny other rights, which are retained by the people.

These freedoms are not freedoms granted to us by any law or decree; though they may be defended by force, they flow from neither the barrel of a gun nor the blessing of a government.

I hold these truths, these freedoms, to be self-evident.

That mankind, born a free people into this world, shall not bend its knee to tyranny.

That no matter under what guise oppression lurks – whether in the form of discrimination, political repression, or religious fanaticsm – we shall not bow our head and go quietly into that dark night from which there is no return but through blood and tears.

That we, as one nation created in the name of liberty and governed by and for the people, shall not perish from this earth as long as these truths remain self-evident.

You, sir, propose nothing short of theocracy: a government ruled by the human interpretation of the divine word of God. In doing so, you deny the very nature of this great nation.

Please take the time to read such things as the Constitution, the Declaration of Independance, the Federalist Papers, the philosophy of Locke and Rousseau, and even de Toqueville’s Democracy in America – they may enlighten you.

Edit: Whoa, missed the sarcasm. Sorry, Moriarty. Sure was fun to write, though.

32

[quote]vroom wrote:
If a parent wants to raise their children with the Christian ideology that homosexuality IS a sin and IS an abomination, then that is their right and the schools shouldn’t contradict them.

At what age does a child develop a mind and start to form their own opinions? I mean, when can you trust a child to have taken what you’ve given them or rejected it already anyway? Why should they never be introduced to the opinions of others?

I don’t think the school should get into morals and religions in any particular manner, but I do think that if the school is going to be the place that people learn to think, that students should be subjected to ideas and allowed to actually think about them.

My job is to help my children make the right choices when they face the cold hard world, which they may or may not do as well as I’d hope, not to shield them from reality.[/quote]

I didn’t know you had children vroom. I never heard you mention them before…

33

Zeb,

I don’t want to mislead you, I don’t have any children.

I have parented somewhat, so I guess I could have said “my job was” or “my job will be”…

34

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
Either your line of thinking is in line with men and worldly ways, or it is in line with God?s ways.

By now you have probably guessed where I am going with this, and yes your line of thinking should be in line with God?s. Homosexuality is a sinful act, and no one should be stating otherwise.
[/quote]

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
so, I must make a sarcastic post that makes this guys beliefs seem fanatical. I think that you could have done a better job with the objections you had to some of my comments.
[/quote]

I think your words speak for themselves. If me quoting you directly makes your “beliefs seem fanatical” then so be it.

Oh, and I really don’t care how you think I should phrase my objections to your posts. I don’t care what God you think my line of thinking should be in line with, and I don’t care what you think I should and should not be stating about homosexuality.

35

[quote]schattenjager29 wrote:
Edit: Whoa, missed the sarcasm. Sorry, Moriarty. Sure was fun to write, though.[/quote]

It was good reading. I just put De Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America” in my Amazon wish list. I’ve only ever read excerpts.

36

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,

I don’t want to mislead you, I don’t have any children.

I have parented somewhat, so I guess I could have said “my job was” or “my job will be”…[/quote]

I see, so you are forcasting how you think you will feel if and when homosexuality is taught in the school that your future children will attend. Do I have that right, or no?

37

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I see, so you are forcasting how you think you will feel if and when homosexuality is taught in the school that your future children will attend. Do I have that right, or no?

[/quote]

Actually, he is forcasting how he thinks he will feel if and when homosexuality is taught in the school that MY future children will attend. Gawd, you would think you could keep up by now.

38

vroom wrote:

At what age does a child develop a mind and start to form their own opinions? I mean, when can you trust a child to have taken what you’ve given them or rejected it already anyway? Why should they never be introduced to the opinions of others?

That is a very good question, Vroom. My opinion on this is that it would definitely not be the same age for all children. As you know, people mature (physically, emotionally, and yes- intellectually) at different rates and ages. Hell- I have college buddies that I’m pretty sure at times my 8-year-old has surpassed intellectually. However, ESPECIALLY at the elementary school level, I still think these matters should be determined by the PARENTS. Later in high school (JR or SR year), possibly, but I would rather not see it untill college, personally. After all, isn’t that when most people start to question everything they were taught as a child, anyway? At that age, they should have the mental maturity to make an informed decision (select fraternity brothers of mine aside- just kidding, guys).

39

[quote]mica617 wrote:
but I would rather not see it untill college, personally. After all, isn’t that when most people start to question everything they were taught as a child, anyway?[/quote]

No. Most kids start questioning authority in high school, some in junior high school. I would actually be afraid that the kid is stunted socially or emotionally if they went through life all of the way until college never questioning what they have been taught.

My parents allowed me to go to other churches (some of my friends were Catholic) as soon as I could drive. They raised me pentecostal but made it clear that it was my choice as far as my perceptions of faith. They believed that if you raised a kid to follow in the footsteps that God has set forth, that he would continue in that way, even if if his view point is different.

I wasn’t aware that raising kids was about controlling every aspect of their belief systems. That is what you are doing if they can’t think for themselves until they hit 18 years of age.

40

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The government shouldn’t be taking positions on religious interpretations at all. And that’s the point.

…I’m of the opinion they should stick to academics.[/quote]

Also, there are 501c3 religious organizations that ask for special tax exempt status. For any particular religious organization to ask for such status, is for them to ask the government to determine what is and what is not a legitimate religious entity.

Thus, if certain religious organizations believes that the government should stay out of religion (of which I agree), then they should not ask for special status from the government. Agree? Disagree?