Pro-Hormones

On what basis are you attributing the gains to said product? You know and I know that if you shell out relatively big bucks for a supplement you are going to follow all the instructions - you will likely train as you never did before and you will eat everything in sight. So you put on 20 lbs of something unknown.

From this how much can you really attribute to the supplement? You have after all trained more and eaten more.

You will only know if there is a control group. That is the only valid way to validate the efficiency and effectiveness of a supplement.

[quote]gonta wrote:
You will only know if there is a control group. That is the only valid way to validate the efficiency and effectiveness of a supplement.[/quote]

Gotta diagree with this statement. An experienced trainee can defintely tell whether, and how well, something works. I trust this more than I do research performed on inexperienced trainees, which is the population most “studies” use.

As Cy alluded to, one particular research study doesn’t prove anything anyway. It might give you an idea of what will happen if a supplement is applied to other populations, but then again it may not.

You need to weigh the results of repeated studies, conducted by different groups. Unfortunately, the supplement industry just isn’t big enough to fund this sort of thing. There are a handful of companies that invest in research, but the rest are just marketing companies.

[quote]gonta wrote:
On what basis are you attributing the gains to said product? You know and I know that if you shell out relatively big bucks for a supplement you are going to follow all the instructions - you will likely train as you never did before and you will eat everything in sight. So you put on 20 lbs of something unknown.

From this how much can you really attribute to the supplement? You have after all trained more and eaten more.

You will only know if there is a control group. That is the only valid way to validate the efficiency and effectiveness of a supplement.[/quote]

Well, you’d actually need a bit more than just a control group. The study would have to be double blind, placebo-controlled, and randomized…and in some cases with a crossover. As side note, while that’s considered the gold standard, I have a very good psychologist friend who’s focusing some of her research on study design and her data has me questioning what I was always taught, was the “gold standard” of study design.

Anyhow, back to what you said above. In most any other circumstance, I’d agree, but when speaking about androgens and in this case, the two particular androgens in MAG-10, I have to disagree. As I said before, the bioassays consistently indicated that one of the androgens is more potent than testosterone and the other is equipotent.

I’m sorry, but unless you’ve never trained with weights before in your life and have been starving yourself for weeks, you’re not going to make gains like that seen with MAG-10 by simply eating more.

Last, probably one of the best informal, open-labelled trials, if you will, I’ve ever seen (in terms of dietary supplements) was with MAG-10 and it involved giving it to some experienced anabolic steroid users on another message board a while back. Those that are familiar with that message board will know what I’m talking about. Anyhow, the same guys from that board who continually bashed MAG-10 simply based on the idea that because it’s “legal, it can’t be effective” were the same guys who were given the supply of MAG-10 to try. The following article gives a few samples of their results:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460456

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:
In the case of various androgens, according to older bioassays (rat levator ani, prostate, seminal vesicle, etc.), one can get a qualitative answer in terms of greater or lesser efficacy as compared to those androgens commonly used in medicine. In that particular case, studies aren’t really necessary as anecdotal evidence has gone a long way to validate efficacy.
[/quote]

Okay, This you are really going to have to explain to me because I don?t have the first sniff of what you are talking about here.

Rat Levator? (some test involving lab rats I assume?)
Seminal vesical (sounds like something I did to a chick once! J )

Seriously though I am very interested in this please try and fill me in.

P.S. I doubt I am the only one

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:

Secondly, no offense, but you seem pretty naive to how much time, money and red tape is involved with conducting study after study. As someone else mentioned, getting a study together evaluating the efficacy of unapproved androgens isn’t going to be very easy unless it’s conducted in-house.

Last, but not least, from a financial standpoint, performing studies in a given population, in the supplement industry at least, doesn’t always translate to much in terms of increasing revenue. Why does this matter? Well, it wouldn’t if it were a particular pharmaceutical company making billions but the fact is they are not. In that case, it’s essentially throwing money and time away.

It’s important to be careful with the use of the word “proof” in science. All too often, people tend to interpret that as being a fact when there aren’t “facts” in science. There is merely evidence to support or discredit a hypothesis and if it stands the test of time, it may become a law or a commonly accepted principle, but even those can be challenged.
[/quote]

You make two really excellent points here, which I think hit the nail right on the head. Studies are not easy or cheap so why would a supplement company do them at all when they can sell just as much of the supplement without having to bother to check if it is safe, or even somewhat effective. I guess the only reason they would is a little thing called ethics. You just made to best case I have ever heard for the FDA to come in and regulate supplements. It is exactly this unethical behaviour that has caused the FDA to start coming down on supplement companies in recent times.

It is has been the practice in the supplement industry in the past, and I suspect it is still the practice today, to simply market the hell out of products that have questionable benefits and no proof whatsoever. The big old happy buck is what dictates. I realise this is a business, and the market forces being what they are pretty much force companies to act this way.

You would think that consumers would even be willing to pay way more for stuff that is actually studied, and published in peer review journals.

Let?s not forget that MANY supplement companies made similar outrageous claims about Andro and Tribulis, before this study was done, and even after it was published.

There also were legions of uncompensated, eager people willing to line up and swear that Andro and tribbulis were the key to their success, and it worked for them so it will work for you too.

Lastly I agree we need to be careful about using the word “proof”. Everybody at one time hypothesised that Andro and tribulis were great until studies like this were done and the hypothesis was discredited.

[quote]birdie wrote:
Cy Willson wrote:
In the case of various androgens, according to older bioassays (rat levator ani, prostate, seminal vesicle, etc.), one can get a qualitative answer in terms of greater or lesser efficacy as compared to those androgens commonly used in medicine. In that particular case, studies aren’t really necessary as anecdotal evidence has gone a long way to validate efficacy.

Okay, This you are really going to have to explain to me because I don?t have the first sniff of what you are talking about here.

Rat Levator? (some test involving lab rats I assume?)
Seminal vesical (sounds like something I did to a chick once! J )

Seriously though I am very interested in this please try and fill me in.

P.S. I doubt I am the only one
[/quote]

Actually, those that frequent this site know what I’m talking about. It’s simply a bioassay used to determine the anabolic/androgenic effects of a given compound. It shares similarities to the Hershberger assay.

When anabolic steroids used in medicine (e.g., stanozolol, oxandrolone, testosterone) are quoted as having an anabolic/androgenic ratio, this is where they are deriving those figures from.

Gonta makes a very valid point. That’s great if you gained weight while using MAG-10. But did you gain weight because MAG-10 increased your 1-Testostrone levels? The key in determining whether a supplement is effective, is whether the results are due to the supplement doing what it said it would, the way it said it would. Three points to make here:

  1. I have tried MAG-10 twice, and gained no weight either time. I’ll admit though, I did not take in enough calories. Even if I did, I’m not so sure any weight gain would have been due to MAG-10.
  2. I asked JB about the TRIBEX study that Cy provided links to. He told me that the study showed that there were strength/mass gains to the endurance athletes, but that the evidence was not conclusive as to why exactly. TRIBEX is suppose to increase T levels, however there did not seem to be signficant evidence of an increase to Total T Levels. So sure, people gained mass/strength, but not necessarily due to increased T levels, which is what the supplement is suppose to do.
  3. We were also shown a study involving Prohormone, Clomid, and Tribulus (on two weight-trained individuals). I don’t have all the details handy, but the Prohormone study was quite telling. Three weeks after use of the Prohormone, Total T levels were ridiculously low. One guy went from 21 nmol/l to 3.7nmol/l. That’s castration levels. Anyways, I guess you need to take all studies with a grain of salt.
    But bottom line question with Supplements is - did the supplement do what it said it would, the way it said it would?

The point many seem to be missing – purposefully it seems to fit their agenda – is that you can’t just look at a single tribulous study and make a conclusion. What tribulous did they use? There’s high and low quality tribulous. Even TRIBEX has been improved a couple of times since the original university studies done on it.

Basically, you can’t study Ford Pintos from the 70’s and conclude that a 2004 Lexus also sucks because, after all, it’s a car too. (Sorry, I stole that analogy from someone, can’t remember who to give them credit.)

As for prohormones, most people who try to bulk with food only just gain a large amount of fat. With prohormones, much more that that is muscle. Hey, people eat alot on sterods too. Is it it just the food causing the muscle gain? Of course not. I doubt Mr. O is bigger than me just because he eats more.

But like someone else said, prohormones being banned anyway so the point is moot. Hey, wonder why the government is reclassifying them as anabolic steroids if they “don’t work”? Ironic huh?

There are certainly supplement companies out there which are guilty of what you’re saying. There are a few who have had products removed due to toxicity, having the FDA step in after toxicity has been demonstrated.

Biotest is not one of them however. We’ve never had to remove a product due to lack of safety. Many of these companies make such mistakes because they have uneducated people working on product development who simply pick out abstracts on medline and conclude something is safe and effective. Biotest performs in-house and independent research on both safety and efficacy. As I said before, getting the studies published makes little difference in terms of sales, so as long as the data we have indicates and supports what we had already concluded, (i.e., it’s safe and effective) the product is released. There is no need to have it published.

FDA regulation of the supplement industry is ridiculous if you’re talking about doing so in the same manner that drugs are…there would be no supplement industry, and increasing the cost of the supplement by a few dollars isn’t going to suffice.

In regard to tribulus, the study you’re referencing used an extract of tribulus which didn’t have a high concentration of protodioscin (the compound thought to be responsible for the effects) whereas TRIBEX does and has been shown to have benefical effects. Again, this is pointed out in the links I gave.

Also, you seem to have misinterpreted what I was saying about “proof” as there is no such thing in science. Proof implies that what you’ve found can’t be discredited. That it is absolute. In other words, one or even five studies yielding a positive result is not “proof” of anything. It’s supportive evidence if you like, but not proof.

Hi Cy, thanks for all your feedback. Have a quick question on MAG-10. I saw on the Biotest website that MAG-10 causes 1-Testostrone levels to spike, but I was wondering if there is a direct link between strength/mass gain and 1-Testostrone levels specifically. Also, what happens to Total T levels after MAG-10 use? Does it go down for a short period of time? Do the links you provide have that information? Thanks again.

[quote]neilbudge wrote:
Hi Cy, thanks for all your feedback. Have a quick question on MAG-10. I saw on the Biotest website that MAG-10 causes 1-Testostrone levels to spike, but I was wondering if there is a direct link between strength/mass gain and 1-Testostrone levels specifically. Also, what happens to Total T levels after MAG-10 use? Does it go down for a short period of time? Do the links you provide have that information? Thanks again.[/quote]

Just as a high concentration of any anabolic steroid in the bloodstream can correlate well with LBM and strength, the same can be expected for A1-E. However, this has never been evaluated simply because it’s something that’s an established effect of an anabolic steroid.

As for total testosterone with MAG-10 use, I know this was looked at about 2-3 years ago (people seem to forget that MAG-10 has been around a while) and I believe total testosterone remained well within the normal range.

However, this is a bit misleading. The reason being that LH was likely decreasing but the fact that a small percentage of the 4-AD in MAG-10 converts to testosterone, gives the appearance that endogenous testosterone isn’t suppressed, when it fact, negative feedback is occurring.

Endogenous testosterone levels will return to baseline shortly after cessation of use, provided that you use MAG-10 for two weeks at a time as we’ve advised.

  1. I wouldn’t base much on “weight” but rather body composition. Caloric intake is a huge factor. I can’t count how many e-mails I’ve had with people telling me that trenbolone, methenolone, methandrostenolone, stanozolol, etc., basically every illegal anabolic steroid you can think of, “didn’t work” but when I asked them about their caloric intake, they had no idea what I was talking about. Anabolic steroids have nutrient partitioning effects, but without consuming enough protein and overall calories, regardless of how potent the compound is, you’re not going to see much in the way of gains. I’m sorry but regardless of how potent the compound is, it’s not going to defy a law of thermodynamics.

  2. A recent analysis of the most current version of TRIBEX, by a person JB knows, found a significant increase in testosterone.

  3. This is the biggest misconception that people have about pro-hormones. They don’t work via increasing testosterone or nandrolone levels! They are intrinsically anabolic and if they aren’t, they are typically ineffective. I wouldn’t expect anything different than decreasing testosterone and LH when an androgen is administered. That is basic endocrinology. Those that do just so happen to convert to testosterone or nandrolone (whether it be via 3 beta-HSD or 17 beta-HSD, etc.) has nothing to do with their effectiveness.

Cy,

YOU ARE THE MAN. Great post.

Said everthing I was thinking and much more. You also put it in a very elequent and well educated tongue, along with some obvious “GET THE DAMN MESSAGE ALLREADY” attitude mixed in.

I dont know how many times this has been posted by you and others, and it is even on a little flier that comes with the Mag-10. (The Growth Surge Project) You must EAT to gain weight. The anabolics are going to merely enhance nutrient partitioning, flood your muscles with what you FEED them, and aid you with enhanced/quicker recovery. Which in turn allows you to hit the weights more. Then by hitting the weights even more, you add yet another need, on top of the enhanced nutrient partioning, to EAT MORE.

So go EAT. LOL

If you expect / want the Mag-10 or any anabolic to directly add weight, then, the only way I figure it can be done would be by breaking open the capsules and using the liquid as a gravy on top of a BIG plate of meat and potatoes, or as a sweet syrup over an icecream sundae.

This is all dependent on goals as well though. If one was not wanting to gain weight. You could simply eat near the same, take Mag-10 and drop or maintain your current weight, while shedding some FAT and adding a bit of LBM along with strength. Off course the results wont be as obvious as the guy who FED the fire but everyones goals are different.

Just had to jump in here.

Thanks Cy, I really think that last post should be a sticky at the top of the forumn, and you all could add it in as a touch tone message @ customer service. “If you want to know why you didnt get AWESOME results from Mag-10 press 1, to hear Cy explain it yet again.”

Normally this is where I would put, “Hope That Helps” But It wont, I just rehashed what was allready written. :slight_smile:

Later,
Phill

Oh please forgive me if I asked a question

[quote]Phill wrote:
EAT MORE.

So go EAT. LOL

[/quote]

Would there be a difference between a typical bulk diet and bulking on MAG-10?
If so, how many more calories are typically recommended on MAG-10? Would the same apply to Alpha Male?

Thanks!

[quote]yustas wrote:
Phill wrote:
EAT MORE.

So go EAT. LOL

Would there be a difference between a typical bulk diet and bulking on MAG-10?
If so, how many more calories are typically recommended on MAG-10? Would the same apply to Alpha Male?

Thanks!
[/quote]

~1000 calories over maintenence for bulking. I don’t know the diff between Alpha Male and MAG-10.

look at that tracking software to really follow your intake.

[quote]chez1850 wrote:
~1000 calories over maintenence for bulking. I don’t know the diff between Alpha Male and MAG-10.

[/quote]

Wow a whole 1K more…it seems like a lot, but I’m just speculating. I guess that is where MRPs come in…Thanks!

CY,

While we’re on the subject of pro-hormones, do you have any insights or tips concerning using pro-steroids during a fat loss/diet cycle.

Crowbar

[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
CY,

While we’re on the subject of pro-hormones, do you have any insights or tips concerning using pro-steroids during a fat loss/diet cycle.

Crowbar[/quote]

Crowbar524,

Not much more than what I mentioned in my “Steroid Dieting” article.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459837