T Nation

Pro-Hormones

Hi there, I am new to this forum and I am looking for some input from you guys. I have read some posts on here and it would seem that a lot of people like and use prohormones. I have read articles written by very knowledgeable people that state prohormones do less than NOTHING. I am going to post this article here for all to read and I welcome your discussion.

here it is:

NUTRITION AND ERGOGENIC AIDS - QUESTION AND ANSWER ~ PART 2
By Ted Lambrinides, PhD

Andro Update: Androstenedione was featured in issue #5 of Hard Training. At that point in time no research had been performed on young healthy individuals undergoing a strength-training program. The June 2nd issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association featured a study entitled “Effect of Oral Androstenedione on Serum Testosterone and Adaptations to Resistance Training in Young Men.” The purpose of this study was to determine if short and long-term oral androstenedione supplementation in men increases serum testosterone levels and skeletal muscle fiber size and strength and to examine its effect on blood lipids and markers of liver function. Twenty subjects performed 8 weeks of whole-body strength training. During weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8, the men were randomized to either androstenedione (300 mg/day) or placebo. Also, the effect of a single 100 mg androstenedione dose on serum testosterone and estrogen concentration was determined in 10 men.
Serum free and total testosterone concentrations were not affected by short or long term androstenedione administration. Estrogen levels were higher in the androstenedione group after 2, 5, and 8 weeks compared with presupplementation values. Strength and increase in the mean cross-sectional area of Type II muscle fibers increased similarly in the placebo and androstenedione groups. The significant increases in lean body mass and decreases in fat mass were also not different in the androstenedione group, the serum high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration was reduced after 2 weeks and remained low after 5 and 8 weeks of training and supplementation. The effect of a single 100 mg androstenedione dose did not affect the serum concentrations of either free or total testosterone.
The authors concluded that androstenedione administration during resistance training did not significantly alter the serum testosterone concentration in normotestosterogenic young men. The increased size and strength observed with resistance training were also not augmented with androstenedione administration. The use of androstenedione increased serum concentrations of estradiol and estrone, suggesting an increased aromatization (aromatization is the conversion of an androgen to an estrogen) of the ingested androstenedione and/or testosterone derived from the oral androstenedione. The use of androstenedione was associated with decreased levels of HDL cholesterol. These date provide evidence that androstenedione does not enhance adaptations to resistance training and may result in potentially serious adverse health consequences in young men.
A couple of other interesting findings from this study were that LH (lutenizing hormone) and FSH (follicular stimulating hormone) were unaffected by supplementation and training in either androstenedione or placebo groups.
This is interesting because the androstenedione supplement utilized during the study was Andro 6 by EAS. This supplement not only contains androstenedione but also tribulus terrestris, which is supposed to increase LH levels, chrysin, which is supposed to inhibit the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, and indole-3-carbinol, which is supposed to help the clearance of estrogen. It is apparent from this study that these additional compounds did not do what they were supposed to do.

References:
King, D.S., et al. Effect of Oral Androstenedione on Serum Testosterone and Adaptations to Resistance Training in Young Men: A Randomized Controlled Trial. Journal of the American Medical Association. Vol. 281 No. 21, June 2, 1999.

INPUT? FROM ANYBODY?

This is research conducted on a product that no one on this site would touch.
Try out some MAG-10 for yourself for just 2 weeks and post to us about your real world results and see how far the andro market has come.

Well, birdie

Your article/study is correct, and I dont think anyone here will argue that Androstenedione is pretty much worthless.

It however is only 1 of the many compounds now available. You need to read up and check studies on some of the other compounds.

Sorry for such a short answer but I am pressed for time. Read the MAG-10 and 4-AD-EC product info threads, and also do a search for some of the articles by Cy Wilson. These should give you a better explaination.

Just a quick note. Both 4-AD-EC and MAG-10 are AWESOME, TOP of the LINE Ph’s. The fact is though, neither of them, or any anabolic compound is a magic pill. You still need to have training, nutrition, and recovery in check to see great results. They are simply aids that will help you push the envelope.

hope that helps,
Phill

Oh forgot to say welcome to the forumn and also that the andro-dione was simply one of the first to hit the market at large and yes things have come a LONG ways.

Welcome, stick around, read, learn,put it to use, and share you results. We’ll do the same. Keep the questions coming as well.

Phill

[quote]Darkangel wrote:
This is research conducted on a product that no one on this site would touch.
Try out some MAG-10 for yourself for just 2 weeks and post to us about your real world results and see how far the andro market has come.[/quote]

Okay, so how much more effective is it than the zero found in the study? The point I am trying to make is; IF these types of supplements (i.e. Andro, Tribbulis, etc) were effective at all, you would expect to see at least SOME positive result from the Study, but there was none. Why do you suppose that is?

Has any successful clinical study ever been performed for MAG-10 or any other products (e.g. TRIBEX)?

[quote]birdie wrote:
Has any clinical successful study been performed for MAG-10 or any other products (e.g. TRIBEX)?
[/quote]

YES. The numerous people on this forum that have taken it. I myself gained close to 20lbs from taking MAG-10 for two weeks, along with solid training and nutrition.

The only way for me to make you believe is to say try it… Youll be pleasantly surprised at what it can do.

[quote]jgrn13 wrote:
YES. The numerous people on this forum that have taken it. I myself gained close to 20lbs from taking MAG-10 for two weeks, along with solid training and nutrition.

The only way for me to make you believe is to say try it… Youll be pleasantly surprised at what it can do.
[/quote]

Not to sound like a jerk, But 20 pounds in 2 weeks? Please. Actual real steriods would not produce 20 pounds of muscle as quickly as 2 , weeks. Besides testimonials like this are not really relevant to what I am asking about. Good for you that you put on 20 pounds though :slight_smile:

I was asking if there were any CLINICAL studies to support any of these products. I have provided a study taken from the American Medical Journal that clearly shows Andro and tribbulis did not produce increases in testosterone production in the body like the manufacturers claimed they did.

I admit the study is a couple years old, so I am asking if anyone has and newer evidence to contradict this? Surely the manufactures of these products must have done some testing of some kind! They wouldn’t just put a product out there for people to buy without testing it first… would they???
(please keep in mind I am NOT asking for testimonials)

He said 20 pounds, not 20 pounds of muscle, some of that would be fat and water retention?

Maybe you should start your search with an open mind… bird

Sorry I dont have any links or studies on hand right now, but they are out there. Hopefully others will chime in with some. If not I will try and remember to get back to you if I find time when I am at my PC that has the info. on it.

Until then, you could actually do the research yourself by looking at the proper compounds. ***Ingredients: 4-androstene-3, 17-diethylcarbonate, 1-androstene-3-one-17-ethylcarbonate.

Trying to compare these with androstendione is like saying that you read an article that said “oranges would kill you, so you better stop eating apples”. There is just no comparison.

Also not taking testimonials from people that have REAL world experience with the products is flat out ignorant. You can find a study on damn near anything that has been scewed and twisted to say what the researchers want it to say.

I would rather take the word of regular people. People that have tried the product. Documented their results in the REAL world, not some funded lab.

Oh, and no you will not find a study that says any PH has boosted natural test. levels. If anything you will get supression of those same hormone levels.

Do some reading. Search. The internet is a HUGE resource, use it.

Just my 2cc, Hope that helps,
Phill

[quote]Tricep wrote:
Maybe you should start your search with an open mind… bird[/quote]

I think I do have an open mind, that is why started this thread in the first place. It would seem to me that questioning the “Status Quo” is what open mindedness is all about. There are some pretty serious claims being made about these products (e.g doubleing natural Testosterone levels, increase recovery by 200%, etc) and from the research I have done, there does not seem to be a whole lot of what I would call proof.

[quote]birdie wrote:
jgrn13 wrote:
YES. The numerous people on this forum that have taken it. I myself gained close to 20lbs from taking MAG-10 for two weeks, along with solid training and nutrition.

The only way for me to make you believe is to say try it… Youll be pleasantly surprised at what it can do.

Not to sound like a jerk, But 20 pounds in 2 weeks? Please. Actual real steriods would not produce 20 pounds of muscle as quickly as 2 , weeks. Besides testimonials like this are not really relevant to what I am asking about. Good for you that you put on 20 pounds though :slight_smile:

I was asking if there were any CLINICAL studies to support any of these products. I have provided a study taken from the American Medical Journal that clearly shows Andro and tribbulis did not produce increases in testosterone production in the body like the manufacturers claimed they did.

I admit the study is a couple years old, so I am asking if anyone has and newer evidence to contradict this? Surely the manufactures of these products must have done some testing of some kind! They wouldn’t just put a product out there for people to buy without testing it first… would they???
(please keep in mind I am NOT asking for testimonials)
[/quote]

In regard to a particular product, that being, TRIBEX, there were some university studies conducted. The following links go over them.

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_113trib

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460986

As for androstenedione, I honestly don’t know of any company (who’s actually still up and running) which sells androstenedione as it’s worthless. You may want to check out the following articles as well.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459896

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462051

it doesn’t really matter if they work or not, since PH will be unavailable as of the end of this year.

now you’ll be able to find andro products on your roid list. I wonder how much they will sell for. laters pk

[quote]Phill wrote:
Also not taking testimonials from people that have REAL world experience with the products is flat out ignorant. You can find a study on damn near anything that has been scewed and twisted to say what the researchers want it to say.

I would rather take the word of regular people. People that have tried the product. Documented their results in the REAL world, not some funded lab.
[/quote]

To start with, I am new to this board, and I am not trying to evoke hostility from people or sound like a prick.

You actually seem genuinely interested in informed discussion, and I greatly appreciate that and I want to thank you for it.

Having said that, I started this thread with an objective published study, asking if other people knew of any other studies or had input regarding the study. So I am going to disagree with the contention that an individual’s subjective personal testimonial is relevant in this case. In the world of supplements, testimonials are to put it bluntly, a “dime a dozen”.

Just because one individual was making good gains while he happened to be swallowing some companies “magical potion” does not mean a whole lot in my mind.

I agree with you that individual experience is very valuable in other more objective topics, such as training techniques. But individual experience about a supplement that may or may not have any basis in science in the first place? I will stick with a study personally.

[quote]birdie wrote: In the world of supplements, testimonials are to put it bluntly, a “dime a dozen”.
[/quote]

If you’ve been around supplements long you’ll know that bogus studies are also a dime a dozen.

Ever heard of HMB, serum creatine, or any of the currently hyped NO2 products? They are or were all extremely popular products supported by scientific research. The only problem was that in each case the research was flawed.

There are many other supplements in the same boat. These are just the first that came to mind.

As for MAG-10, in the current political climate I don’t think you’d find a credible university willing to do research on the effects of a steroid on athletes. I bet they wouldn’t touch something like this with a ten-foot pole.

MAG-10 is legitimate, though. I believe that for many poeple on this site it has provided better gains than any other legal supplement. The problem is that it won’t be legal much longer. It will be classified just like all “bad” steroids. It’s a shame.

Puuuuuuuuuuulease you would rather have testimonials by real people than by contolled labs??? come on…Birdie makes a valid point. There is a lot said by EVERY supplement company without much scientific validation.

Every company says they do exhaustive tests that prove that their products are the best ever but never publish these tests.

Why not is my question.

Gonta - that’s a good question. But these first hand accounts being spoken of aren’t handed out by Biotest, they are offered by people in the forum. So you want to know what product X did for an average, educated trainee? I can’t see asking one of 'em being a bad idea.

[quote]Bob423 wrote:
Gonta - that’s a good question. But these first hand accounts being spoken of aren’t handed out by Biotest, they are offered by people in the forum. So you want to know what product X did for an average, educated trainee? I can’t see asking one of 'em being a bad idea. [/quote]

Okay, I am not trying to turn this into a “Tastes Great! Less Filling!” thread about whether studies or testimonials are better. That would be a waste of what up until now has been what I believe to be a pretty informative thread. I do not doubt the experience of members of this board. And I can easily find lots of testimonials under the product reviews

However,

  1. These first hand accounts could very well be from Bio-test employees (this is a common marketing tactic nowadays) I am not accusing anyone of anything, but I believe it to be a valid concern.

  2. Surely you don’t suggest that the subjective “feelings” of any small group of individuals would be on an equal footing with a proper study published in a peer reviewed Journal (e.g. The Lancet, etc) in terms of scientific proof of the efficacy of a supplement?

  3. So, Once again I ask for any published studies that relate to prohormones, tribbulis, and any other body building related supplement. I am sure in a forum such as this somebody would have some input. Anybody know of any?

[quote]birdie wrote:
Bob423 wrote:
Gonta - that’s a good question. But these first hand accounts being spoken of aren’t handed out by Biotest, they are offered by people in the forum. So you want to know what product X did for an average, educated trainee? I can’t see asking one of 'em being a bad idea.

Okay, I am not trying to turn this into a “Tastes Great! Less Filling!” thread about whether studies or testimonials are better. That would be a waste of what up until now has been what I believe to be a pretty informative thread. I do not doubt the experience of members of this board. And I can easily find lots of testimonials under the product reviews

However,

  1. These first hand accounts could very well be from Bio-test employees (this is a common marketing tactic nowadays) I am not accusing anyone of anything, but I believe it to be a valid concern.

  2. Surely you don’t suggest that the subjective “feelings” of any small group of individuals would be on an equal footing with a proper study published in a peer reviewed Journal (e.g. The Lancet, etc) in terms of scientific proof of the efficacy of a supplement?

  3. So, Once again I ask for any published studies that relate to prohormones, tribbulis, and any other body building related supplement. I am sure in a forum such as this somebody would have some input. Anybody know of any?
    [/quote]

I’ve already pointed out some reviews for you. Here is another:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462083

Secondly, no offense, but you seem pretty naive to how much time, money and red tape is involved with conducting study after study. As someone else mentioned, getting a study together evaluating the efficacy of unapproved androgens isn’t going to be very easy unless it’s conducted in-house.

In the case of various androgens, according to older bioassays (rat levator ani, prostate, seminal vesicle, etc.), one can get a qualitative answer in terms of greater or lesser efficacy as compared to those androgens commonly used in medicine. In that particular case, studies aren’t really necessary as anecdotal evidence has gone a long way to validate efficacy.

Last, but not least, from a financial standpoint, performing studies in a given population, in the supplement industry at least, doesn’t always translate to much in terms of increasing revenue. Why does this matter? Well, it wouldn’t if it were a particular pharmaceutical company making billions but the fact is they are not. In that case, it’s essentially throwing money and time away.

It’s important to be careful with the use of the word “proof” in science. All too often, people tend to interpret that as being a fact when there aren’t “facts” in science. There is merely evidence to support or discredit a hypothesis and if it stands the test of time, it may become a law or a commonly accepted principle, but even those can be challenged.

Oh and finally, it’s important to realize that not every study or all data is published. It’s very common for companies to contract out independent teams to evaluate a given compound, or they’ll perform in-house research, but that doesn’t mean the data is going to be submitted for publishing. Pharmaceutical companies will often do the same exact thing.

thanks Tricep.
Yes, 20 lbs means 20 lbs. Of that, who knows how much was muscle. Either way, it worked well enough for me to use it again…

Whether or not there is Clinical proof, I cant answer that, but the fact I myself gained what I did, is proof enough for me.