T Nation

Pro Hormone and AI's

I notice in most of the Pro Hormone threads that an AI is rarely mentioned in a PH cycle…

Would it be beneficial to use adex during a PH cycle?

It would depend on the substance in question.

AI’s are used with steroids that aromatize.

I really don’t know how to answer your query without making you sound unintelligent so I’ll let you figure out the rest.

There are PH’s that aromatize.

4AD comes to mind.

But its never dosed high enough to necessitate AI usage.

You dont even need an AI with real steroids that dont aromatize.

Anavar, OT, Bold, Tren, etc.

Thanks for the help guys!
The PH’s i had in question are for a friend, he was looking into doing a 6 week cylce of either tren extreme, havoc or epistane. with nolva as the pct, not nolva xt.

I have tried to talk him into just doing a ‘real’ cycle…but oh well.

thanks again!

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
AI’s are used with steroids that aromatize.

I really don’t know how to answer your query without making you sound unintelligent so I’ll let you figure out the rest. [/quote]

i guess aromitize inhibitor (AI) should have made it easy for me to figure out myself. i am still learning, so i am cool with you making me sound unintelligent as long a i learn from it.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
There are PH’s that aromatize.

4AD comes to mind.[/quote]

Not directly. The only aromatization is from the small fraction that converts to testosterone. Even this yields no increase in estrogen, from our findings. I expect this is from 4-AD at sufficiently high levels being probably somewhat of an aromatase inhibitor itself.

Not the reason. It doesn’t increase estrogen at 100 mg/day by injection either. Androsol also delivered quite high levels.

An out-of-date matter, but inasmuch as you brought it up.

[quote]You dont even need an AI with real steroids that dont aromatize.

Anavar, OT, Bold, Tren, etc.
[/quote]

Boldenone aromatizes.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Westclock wrote:
There are PH’s that aromatize.

4AD comes to mind.

Not directly. The only aromatization is from the small fraction that converts to testosterone. Even this yields no increase in estrogen, from our findings. I expect this is from 4-AD at sufficiently high levels being probably somewhat of an aromatase inhibitor itself.

But its never dosed high enough to necessitate AI usage.

Not the reason. It doesn’t increase estrogen at 100 mg/day by injection either. Androsol also delivered quite high levels.

An out-of-date matter, but inasmuch as you brought it up.

You dont even need an AI with real steroids that dont aromatize.

Anavar, OT, Bold, Tren, etc.

Boldenone aromatizes.

[/quote]

I did not know that about 4AD. Very interesting. Is there any known reason why it acts like an AI ?

Ok, Ok… Bold does aromatize, but not significantly, and the estrogens produced are generally dealt with by the liver before they can cause too many problems for the user. At any normal dose it would not warrant AI usage.

lol I should have said, “dont require an AI” rather than “dont aromatize” Bill is busting my balls tonight.

Compounds are competitive inhibitors when they have reasonable binding affinity to the binding site for the enzyme’s normal substrate (substance it converts) but are themselves non-metabolizable by the enzyme.

As testosterone, of course, binds to aromatase, and furthermore aromatase is not so terribly selective (e.g., androstenedione binds as well) it’s not at all impossible for other androgens to bind.

DHT for example does.

While at first glance the diol substitution – having an -OH at the 3-position instead of =O – might seem like a big difference that could likely ruin binding, this is not the case.

When actually designing an inhibitor, the ideal molecular shape one aims for is not the same as either the substrate (here, testosterone) or the product (here, estradiol) but rather the inbetween shape in the transition state of the reaction. This shape is likely to be what binds best.

Or from another perspective, the product also always has some binding.

As estrogen, like 4-AD, has a 3-hydroxy, a 3-hydroxy therefore need be no impediment to binding.

It is also not aromatizable.

So thus, to the degree it binds, it is an aromatase inhibitor.

It’s not very effective at all per ng/dL of blood, but the free 4-AD levels involved can be pretty high. It was never measured, so far as I know, with 4-AD by injection, but while I forget the values we measured from Androsol application, it was something like 20-30 times higher free 4-AD levels than normal free testosterone levels. So there was a shipload of the stuff in the blood.

Perhaps the surprise should be more that estrogen didn’t decrease from this, despite moderately increased testosterone, rather than that it didn’t increase (stayed the same.)

So a quite modest effect, but enough to counter the otherwise-expected increase in estrogen from moderately increased T.

On boldenone: A big part of it is that due to side effects no one can tolerate much boldenone anyway. Or at least no one that I have known of, and generally speaking. (Tolerance generally limits to the 400-600 mg/week level depending on the individual.) But you’re right, it also aromatizes at a lower rate than testosterone.