T Nation

Pro-Choice: Defending the Right Not to be Gay

Presented without further commit.

This, along with his earlier article that he links to, are disingenuous to the fucking extreme.

Rather amazing, really.

I can sympathize with the overall case he’s making in the article you linked to, but the issue is that case can be made against virtually all organizations and entities pushing an agenda. In other words, it’s nonsensical to claim that only Liberals or gay-rights folks do it.

Care to explain?

Honestly the missteps in the article are so many I wouldn’t even know where to start.

How can one author so often state something and then say:

“Essentially this means X.” Where X is a complete logical leap from what he stated.

Thank goodness the author posted this:

He just didn’t post it nearly enough.

Much like H Factor stated, there’s so many wrong logic and poorly construed arguments in this article that I don’t even know where to begin.

I’ll do it when I’m not sleepy later in the future.

Again, you are simply making a claim without attempting to back it up.

And before you think I am looking for a fight, I’m not. I’m looking for honest opinion.

In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
Why is this child being deprived of appropriate medical counseling?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
Why is this child being deprived of appropriate medical counseling?[/quote]

And there we have it. Reality runs headlong into faulty ideology. (or vice versa)

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
[/quote]

It would seem so, because

A] A “normal” medical physician does not seem to be a mental health provider in California legalese: “‘Mental health provider’ means a physician and surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry, a psychologist, a psychological assistant, intern, or trainee, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a registered marriage and family therapist, intern, or trainee, a licensed educational psychologist, a credentialed school psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker, an associate clinical social worker, a licensed professional clinical counselor, a registered clinical counselor, intern, or trainee, or any other person designated as a mental health professional under California law or regulation.”

and

B] It is not clear that the named discussion would violate the law anyway.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
[/quote]

It would seem so, because

A] A “normal” medical physician does not seem to be a mental health provider in California legalese: “‘Mental health provider’ means a physician and surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry, a psychologist, a psychological assistant, intern, or trainee, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a registered marriage and family therapist, intern, or trainee, a licensed educational psychologist, a credentialed school psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker, an associate clinical social worker, a licensed professional clinical counselor, a registered clinical counselor, intern, or trainee, or any other person designated as a mental health professional under California law or regulation.”

and

B] It is not clear that the named discussion would violate the law anyway.[/quote]

A: A doctor or surgeon can claim to specialize and practice in any field he or she chooses. So there are indeed “adolescent” physicians who address the psychosocial questions of gender. They do not have tohave completed a residency in psychiatry to treat patients.

B: From the bill, which you, too, examined: “(b) (1) â??Sexual orientation change effortsâ?? means any practices by mental health providers that seek to change an individualâ??s sexual orientation. This includes efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex.”

So in my example, a doctor is prevented from advising the hypothetical family or child–raised as girl but phenotypically and anatomically a male.

I understand that the law is intended to prevent coercion; what is written instead, with the aid of underinformed interest groups advising California’s legislature–a league of realtors and lawyers–just does not allow for informed choice without coercion.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
[/quote]

It would seem so, because

A] A “normal” medical physician does not seem to be a mental health provider in California legalese: “‘Mental health provider’ means a physician and surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry, a psychologist, a psychological assistant, intern, or trainee, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a registered marriage and family therapist, intern, or trainee, a licensed educational psychologist, a credentialed school psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker, an associate clinical social worker, a licensed professional clinical counselor, a registered clinical counselor, intern, or trainee, or any other person designated as a mental health professional under California law or regulation.”

and

B] It is not clear that the named discussion would violate the law anyway.[/quote]

A: A doctor or surgeon can claim to specialize and practice in any field he or she chooses. So there are indeed “adolescent” physicians who address the psychosocial questions of gender. They do not have tohave completed a residency in psychiatry to treat patients.[/quote]

But if he doesn’t claim such, then the law seems not to apply to him. My doctor is not a “physician or surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry,” so, if I were under 18 and living in California, would the present law apply to him? It seems to me that a loophole is presented that dodges just the kind of scenario you’ve drawn up.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
[/quote]

It would seem so, because

A] A “normal” medical physician does not seem to be a mental health provider in California legalese: “‘Mental health provider’ means a physician and surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry, a psychologist, a psychological assistant, intern, or trainee, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a registered marriage and family therapist, intern, or trainee, a licensed educational psychologist, a credentialed school psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker, an associate clinical social worker, a licensed professional clinical counselor, a registered clinical counselor, intern, or trainee, or any other person designated as a mental health professional under California law or regulation.”

and

B] It is not clear that the named discussion would violate the law anyway.[/quote]

A: A doctor or surgeon can claim to specialize and practice in any field he or she chooses. So there are indeed “adolescent” physicians who address the psychosocial questions of gender. They do not have tohave completed a residency in psychiatry to treat patients.[/quote]

But if he doesn’t claim such, then the law seems not to apply to him. My doctor is not a “physician or surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry,” so, if I were under 18 and living in California, would the present law apply to him? It seems to me that a loophole is presented that dodges just the kind of scenario you’ve drawn up.
[/quote]

Maybe you are right. Maybe.
Maybe the motivated SF LGBT Gender Police will use this law against a well-meaning doctor, a doctor who thinks he or she is protected by a loophole. Maybe his/her life will be ruined.

How about a whole department of well meaning physicians?
http://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child_and_adolescent_gender_center/

How about writing a law as it should have been intended–forbidding coercion is such matters–instead a poorly formulated law designed to punish health care practitioners for exercising their judgment?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
[/quote]

It would seem so, because

A] A “normal” medical physician does not seem to be a mental health provider in California legalese: “‘Mental health provider’ means a physician and surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry, a psychologist, a psychological assistant, intern, or trainee, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a registered marriage and family therapist, intern, or trainee, a licensed educational psychologist, a credentialed school psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker, an associate clinical social worker, a licensed professional clinical counselor, a registered clinical counselor, intern, or trainee, or any other person designated as a mental health professional under California law or regulation.”

and

B] It is not clear that the named discussion would violate the law anyway.[/quote]

A: A doctor or surgeon can claim to specialize and practice in any field he or she chooses. So there are indeed “adolescent” physicians who address the psychosocial questions of gender. They do not have tohave completed a residency in psychiatry to treat patients.[/quote]

But if he doesn’t claim such, then the law seems not to apply to him. My doctor is not a “physician or surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry,” so, if I were under 18 and living in California, would the present law apply to him? It seems to me that a loophole is presented that dodges just the kind of scenario you’ve drawn up.
[/quote]

Maybe you are right. Maybe.
Maybe the motivated SF LGBT Gender Police will use this law against a well-meaning doctor, a doctor who thinks he or she is protected by a loophole. Maybe his/her life will be ruined.

How about a whole department of well meaning physicians?
http://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child_and_adolescent_gender_center/

How about writing a law as it should have been intended–forbidding coercion is such matters–instead a poorly formulated law designed to punish health care practitioners for exercising their judgment?[/quote]

Oh don’t get me wrong–I’m not defending the law. We are in agreement on the subject of its stupidity. And I think it should have been written exactly as you’ve proposed.

I’m just a nitpicker. Nitpicking is an underrated endeavor, especially in what is currently my profession (though hopefully the tense and adverb are imminently doomed).

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
In San Francisco, a child of Dominican descent is born in with female genitalia and is raised as a girl, of course.
But at age 12, her voice deepens, she grows pubic hair and testicles descend into her new scrotal structures. She becomes a “he.”

Her parents ask a physician to help with gender reassignment questions. Can the doctor speak about changing her/his sexual orientation?
[/quote]

It would seem so, because

A] A “normal” medical physician does not seem to be a mental health provider in California legalese: “‘Mental health provider’ means a physician and surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry, a psychologist, a psychological assistant, intern, or trainee, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a registered marriage and family therapist, intern, or trainee, a licensed educational psychologist, a credentialed school psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker, an associate clinical social worker, a licensed professional clinical counselor, a registered clinical counselor, intern, or trainee, or any other person designated as a mental health professional under California law or regulation.”

and

B] It is not clear that the named discussion would violate the law anyway.[/quote]

A: A doctor or surgeon can claim to specialize and practice in any field he or she chooses. So there are indeed “adolescent” physicians who address the psychosocial questions of gender. They do not have tohave completed a residency in psychiatry to treat patients.[/quote]

But if he doesn’t claim such, then the law seems not to apply to him. My doctor is not a “physician or surgeon specializing in the practice of psychiatry,” so, if I were under 18 and living in California, would the present law apply to him? It seems to me that a loophole is presented that dodges just the kind of scenario you’ve drawn up.
[/quote]

Maybe you are right. Maybe.
Maybe the motivated SF LGBT Gender Police will use this law against a well-meaning doctor, a doctor who thinks he or she is protected by a loophole. Maybe his/her life will be ruined.

How about a whole department of well meaning physicians?
http://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child_and_adolescent_gender_center/

How about writing a law as it should have been intended–forbidding coercion is such matters–instead a poorly formulated law designed to punish health care practitioners for exercising their judgment?[/quote]

Oh don’t get me wrong–I’m not defending the law. We are in agreement on the subject of its stupidity. And I think it should have been written exactly as you’ve proposed.

I’m just a nitpicker. Nitpicking is an underrated endeavor, especially in what is currently my profession (though hopefully the tense and adverb are imminently doomed). [/quote]

And good luck to you!


Lest someone think I have an imagination, the condition I describe is real. “Guevedoche” (5-alpha reductase deficiency) affects 12 extended families in the Dominican Republic.


Next, if the law were written to prohibit coercion, who speaks for the minor (under 18) who wants his/her gender identity questions answered by a “professional?” Can a parent prohibit the interaction? (Can a parent prohibit a doctor from curing Hodgkin’s Disease in a 12 year-old, even if the result will be an unnecessary death?)