DB,
So you wouldn’t suggest taking the Power Drive and Surge together post-workout? I’ve been taking them together b/c I like the taste, but if they are competing with each other then I guess I’ll have to make the switch.
Stay strong
MR
Wow, I just typed out the whole response and then pasted over it. 
Groups of amino acids use the same transporter, and when in abundance, the amino acids of the same group will compete for transport.
When using Power Drive, which has the amino acid tryosine as a main ingredent, you want to ensure that no other amino acids are in the gut to compete for uptake.
This is why Power Drive is most effective when consumed on an empty stomach (or at least in the absence of protein).
[quote]the MaxX wrote:
Really…take the Power Drive before the Surge? Could you explain to me why?
[/quote]
MaxX, the supplements you listed are the best for joints. Way to do your homework!
Wobenzym, or rather the enzymes contained in this product, have been shown to reduce muscle damage following eccentric exercise Whether this is always good remains to be seen). I must admit that I have no idea how the effects of these enzymes goes from the gut to skeletal muscle.
Although I have heard good things, and research suggests that these enzymes may work for inflammation, there may be potentially catabolic effects to muscle. We just don’t know right now, but then again, I’d favor joint health over constant pain any day.
Bottom Line: I’d use it as a last resort.
NOTE: I’ll PM MaxX with this in case he doesn’t se it here.
[quote]the MaxX wrote:
Also, any interesting findings in the world of supplements to repair joints?
I have heard excellent things regarding such compounds as glucosamine, chondroitin, fish oils, etc. I would like to know your take on Wobenzyme, how it works, and the overall efficacy as well as synergistic compounds.
Thanks so much. [/quote]
DB,
Last weekend I hung out with another nutritional guru. Who was it? I can’t say (cough, cough, Berardi).
Anyway, we discussed the issue of insulin sensitivity and specific carb ingestion. I won’t discuss what he said but I will state that nutritional experts often relate AM carb ingestion with the simple notion that liver glycogen stores are decreased after a fast (sleeping). I want to hear your take on the following question:
Does the time of day really determine whether or not carbs will be more preferentially stored as fat? In other words, if a trainee is ingesting high-quality carbs and a balance of macronutrient ratios, does it really matter when you ingest them?
Get Lifted, you’re right on about the amino acid competition. I must admit that I have nothing more than a gut feeling about requiring large increases in blood tyrosine to induce neurotransmitter synthesis (the whole reason I use Power Drive).
In other words, I feel that in order to get the desired effect post workout, you need a tyrosine spike.
If this weren’t the case, then we’d have optimal neurotransmitter levels just from out high protein diets.
[quote]Get Lifted wrote:
This is just an educated guess here…
Barr with me— 
I’m guessing that because the Power Drive contains the amino acid tyrosine (3000 mg) in addition to Phosphatidylcholine and DMAE Bitartrate and the Surge contains the amino Acids L-Phenylalanine, L-Glutamine, L-Leucine, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine… (11-12grams total)
If taken at the same time as I did yesterday… The blood or body or brain… will drop off some of the amino acids if there is too many present at a single given time… or dose?[/quote]
[quote]David Barr wrote:
Massif, for the record, I am stealing your “High-Barr” for a future Prime Time. 
To me, the Anabolic Diet is a traditional low carb diet. I think it’s because I first read about it in the early 90’s, in a book by Bill Phillips.
No one has ever heard of low carb at the time (again, except us Canadians, who live on whale meat), so enduring the criticism was more difficult than the actual diet.
Overall I’m a fan… I mean, those carb weekends, you feel like a God! If this fits your lifestyle, even better!
I just wish they had HOT-ROX when I tried it. LOL
Let us know how it goes![/quote]
Dave and Massif,
I LOVE the AD. Di Pasquale is really a smart cookie and the diet is beautiful. Just keep the weekend carbs clean if you are above 12% or so.
I used the 80/20 rule or thereabouts. 80% clean carbs, 20% “Natty stuff”
Nobody outsmarts DP on this nutrition stuff.
DH
Get Lifted (again), you’re using waaay too much Surge at once, and most of it is getting wasted, in addition to killing your best results from Power Drive.
Do you really use half a tub of Surge each workout?
Pure amino acids consumed before a lifting session stay in the blood for up to an hour after the workout. Keeping in mind that whey hydrolysate (like that in Surge) is slightly slower than pure amino acids. This means that during and immediately post workout drinks are not necessary. Having said THAT, consuming the Surge half an hour after the workout is great.
Also, don’t forget about the 24 hour post workout window. Be sure to have a morning Surge to maximize your results.
In your case, I’d use the Power Drive before the workout, before the Surge.
[quote]Get Lifted wrote:
Thanks Barr,Using A (Pre-During-Post) 3 scoop of Surge in each bottle routine… Would the Power Drive interfere with the During workout drink??? Becuase if I’m pretty much gulping the 3 scoop Surge 10 minutes prior to the workout and then another 3 scoops during the workout and then another 3 scoops immediately after the workout would it interfere? I’m trying to take what you said and put it to use thats all…mmmm
Would I need to finish the During workout drink about 30-40 minutes prior to using the Power Drive? Then take the post 3 scoop Surge right after the Power Drive?
I was trying to use it for CNS recovery… Given what you said I’m trying to find the best way to implement your suggestion.
Maybe I’m waaaay off on the whole amino acid competition thing but I thought I would take a stab at it.
Cool tools,
-Get Lifted
[/quote]
Mike, I’d like to emphasize that it’s a gut feeling about post workout amino acid competition. Again, if we didn’t need a spike, then normal high protein diets would be ideal.
Certainly pre-workout Power Drive is best used alone (because it may have more immediate effects), but post workout is a little more tricky.
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
DB,
So you wouldn’t suggest taking the Power Drive and Surge together post-workout? I’ve been taking them together b/c I like the taste, but if they are competing with each other then I guess I’ll have to make the switch.
Stay strong
MR
[/quote]
Dave,
Di Pasquale suggests using (for the AD since we’re avoiding carbs) whey isolate just before training and then using amino acids directly after training. If I’m on the AD, what would be the best scenario to get the best hyperaminoacidemia effect without the carbos. By using a 36 hour weekend load, I really have to keep carbos low during the week. Because of this, I’ve avoided using the TKD as MacDonald called it. This was using one’s carb times only at post workout periods. I’d like the anabolic hit while still stuffing myself with canoles and breadsticks on the weekend. Thoughts?
DH
Damnit Waterbury, quit hogging JB! At least now I know why he won’t return my phone calls (or emails…). LOL/Tear
That’s a kick ass question. It seems as though insulin sensitivity decreases throughout the day due to changes in blood triglyceride (fat) levels, but whether there is a natural variation, we don’t know (well, at least I don’t :).
Throw in the fact that our insulin sensitivity is elevated for at least 24 hours after training (part of the 24 hour post workout window) and the situation gets even more complicated.
Overall it appears as though weight gain is minimized when lighter meals are eaten later in the day, but I believe that this has more to do with daily vs. nightly activity to burn off the calories.
I also have to say that I’m not sure liver glycogen would affect muscle insulin or carbohydrate sensitivity too much in our trained state.
Have I skirted the questions enough yet?
Bottom Line: Yes in sedentary individuals, less-so, if at all in trained people. Do I win anything?
[quote]Chad Waterbury wrote:
DB,
Last weekend I hung out with another nutritional guru. Who was it? I can’t say (cough, cough, Berardi).
Anyway, we discussed the issue of insulin sensitivity and specific carb ingestion. I won’t discuss what he said but I will state that nutritional experts often relate AM carb ingestion with the simple notion that liver glycogen stores are decreased after a fast (sleeping). I want to hear your take on the following question:
Does the time of day really determine whether or not carbs will be more preferentially stored as fat? In other words, if a trainee is ingesting high-quality carbs and a balance of macronutrient ratios, does it really matter when you ingest them? [/quote]
Disc Hoss, I’m glad you brought this up because it’s something I needed to address from an earlier thread.
A few years ago, the bodybuilding world adopted the idea that whey is a fast protein and casein is a slow protein. This is based on research that is almost a decade old.
With today’s different sub-types of protein (such as whey isolate, concentrate hydrolysate etc.), and our knowledge of the importance of nutrient timing, we need to modify our thinking. Whey protein generally needs to be thought of as moderate speed protein, with only hydrolysate being thought of as “fast”.
Since even a fast protein like whey hydrolysate will stay in the blood for over an hour post workout, when consumed before the training session, additional drinks are not necessary.
Everything else looks good with regard to the carbs, although I’d add a little sucrose to pre or post wokout shake (you don’t need much). I would also adjust the protein as mentioned earlier, and lose the isolate.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Dave,
Di Pasquale suggests using (for the AD since we’re avoiding carbs) whey isolate just before training and then using amino acids directly after training. If I’m on the AD, what would be the best scenario to get the best hyperaminoacidemia effect without the carbos. By using a 36 hour weekend load, I really have to keep carbos low during the week. Because of this, I’ve avoided using the TKD as MacDonald called it. This was using one’s carb times only at post workout periods. I’d like the anabolic hit while still stuffing myself with canoles and breadsticks on the weekend. Thoughts?
DH[/quote]
Thanks for all the questions guys! Looking forward to more next week!
BTW-Star Wars Episode III tonight (in case you somehow forgot).
Cheers
Thanks, Dave.
So hydrolyzed protein (I use hydro WPC at 520 daltons, and hydro casein at 360 daltons) before training with some sucralose and I won’t need to use the same for a post workout option?
How much sucrose to do the job, considering I must keep my daily limit to around 30-40g overall. Am I looking for the minimal threshold to get some insulin stimulation?
thanks,
DH
Yeah, I thought it was a bit much too.
Here is why I used that much.
Pg. 199 Scrawny to Brawny
If you have the book then it is the chart at the bottom of the page.
Here is what it says:
A couple things I got confused about: THANK GOD I asked this question or I would literally be pissing my money down the drain which really needs to be going to school… Thats a joke but the books… Wait a book… LOL
Entitled for Maximal Results:
.8g/kg carbs
.4g/kg Protein
0.0g/kg Fat
This is for the 3 drinks in the workout. Within 15 minutes of exercise… Sip another During and immediately after another.
So I started at 204 pounds right.
204/2.2 = 92.72
It mentions these amino acids:
BCAA 3-5 grams
Glutamine 3 grams
Phenylalanine 3-5 grams
So 92.72 * .8(carbs) = 74.176
92.72 * .4(Protein) = 37.088
92.72 * 0.0 (Fat) = 0
Notice: 8 lines up from page 199. " The Following table presents a list of ingredients and the times that you should take them. Remember, for optimal results , use as directed below. Several Commercial recovery drinks are available and contain this ideal composition. In addition, you can easily obtain the ingredients online and mix up your own home brew. Unfortunately, yours isn’t likely to taste as good"
Given the above numbers it becomes immediately apparent there already is a problem. At least, I see one. IF JB wrote this section… AND when he talks about using one of the commercial products…? Hinting at Surge.(I don’t see why he didn’t come out and say it, except for the reason that maybe he didn’t want to make it sound like he was pushing his supplement.)
If the table is optimal… Surge does not fit into that category because it contains 1.5 grams of total fat. 1 of which is saturated fat. There already is a discrepancy between what he recommended and Surge…
Assuming g/kg means this many grams per this many kilograms of bodyweight those numbers are correct.
Ok now… 74 grams of carbs per drink
37 grams of protein per drink
0 grams of Fat per drink (which doesn’t make sense given Surge)
Ok so 2 scoops(1 serv) of Surge contains 49 grams of carbs, 25 grams of protein, and 1.5 grams of fat.
I divided 49 by 2 = 24.5 for carbs
Thus, 49 + 1 additional scoop 24.5 = 73.5 grams…
Coincidence I think not! LOL Don’t dis-Barr me please…
Now I divided 25 by 2 = 12.5
Thus, 25 + 1 additional scoop 12.5 = 37.5
Fat is still confusing me… It says for optimal it needs to be 0. However, Surge contains some fat…
This is how I came to 3 scoops of Surge per drink.
A couple of things could have went wrong here…
(1) the symbol g/kg does not mean grams per kilogram of bodyweight… Unlikely…
(2) On page 199 he is not talking about a commercial product such as surge for optimal workout nutrition. Unlikely…
(3) I have some fuzzy math…
(4) JB did not write the section correct or enough for someone following it to understand it.
(5) This IS how much I am suppose to take given the material I reviewed. Half a bottle of Surge per workout!
Great now I have been getting amino acid toxicity perhaps if you are correct. That I have heard from my nutrition classes.
So Barr as you can see my brain is really fried.
If someone could clear this up, preferably yourself and JB I would really appreciate it, as well as my body and training and wallet.
Thanks for being so patient with my posts David Barr I really appreciate the time you’re taking to answer my questions.
-Get Lifted
I’ve got a question for Protein Barr.
-
How come when I call you your phone is out of service?
-
Why you dissin’ my S to B recommendations? (Ok, I know you’re not but Get Lifted is confused and thinks you are so I’ve gotta bust your stones about it).
Now, for Get Lifted.
You’re trying to get big, right?
And what’s the #1, most important factor in getting big?
Calories, right.
Well, that’s why you’re using so much of the recovery drinks. You’re sneaking in tons of calories wherever you can. You could easily replace the calories in other ways. The book simply outlines one strategy I’ve used with maximum effectiveness in my clients.
If you can’t afford to use that much of a recovery drink, cool. Find another place for those calories to fit in. But don’t remove them entirely. You need to eat big.
Anyway, in the end, 1.5 g of fat here or there IS NOT all that important. (the book gives approximate guidelines).
Results are important. Perhaps you’re best served by following the program for a few weeks and coming back to report your results.
Are you getting results?
Ok, It was a bit much from what I was using before… so I was a little nervous anyhow regardless of my original question. I thought I may have made a mistake in my calculations or interpretations. It wasn’t even an issue until I was trying to figure out how to use the power-drive for CNS without the competing for amino acids between the two… I’ll leave that for you two Jedi’s to debate. Maybe I can then get a recommendation on how to incorporate the Surge and Power-Drive in my workouts… without the competing.
As far as it working JB, you’ll just have to wait until this phase 1: correction is over and I post my results for the phase…
I WAS GOING to see the premiere at 12:00 oclock tonight for Star Wars so I could dress up… J/k but they won’t let you in if you take foods or drinks. I guess they want you to buy there 6.00 dollar popcorn and a quarter liter of coke. NOT going to happen… We are going to see it tommorrow so I can time it right with the food… My friends didn’t really want to see it tonight anyhow so it worked out great.
I don’t know if many of you have seen this trailer…
http://s112352282.onlinehome.us/Ep3Trailer_pixelmagic720.mov
-Get Lifted