T Nation

Primary or Secondary? And Does It Matter?


#10

I have faxed my doctor and requested blood tests before and stated that I would schedule a follow up appointment to discuss the results. I would also call back and get them to fax me the results so that I could do my own research and be armed BEFORE the meeting with the doc.


write out your symptoms to give to the doc.

say that with your symptoms you would like to rule out (or confirm) if your symptoms are being caused by X with a couple of simple blood tests. What is the harm in a couple of simple tests to confirm or deny a possible treatable condition?

have a list of requested blood tests to give to the doc.

80mg E3D is still a pretty major dose for most.


#11

D3- 8-12 IU (tablets)

That is homeopathic!

Body temps are strange, 98.6 waking is not expected.


#12

[quote]PureChance wrote:
I have faxed my doctor and requested blood tests before and stated that I would schedule a follow up appointment to discuss the results. I would also call back and get them to fax me the results so that I could do my own research and be armed BEFORE the meeting with the doc.


write out your symptoms to give to the doc.

say that with your symptoms you would like to rule out (or confirm) if your symptoms are being caused by X with a couple of simple blood tests. What is the harm in a couple of simple tests to confirm or deny a possible treatable condition?

have a list of requested blood tests to give to the doc.

80mg E3D is still a pretty major dose for most.[/quote]

I should be getting bloods at the end of the month, I will try to get a Full workup making sure I cover all bases here. Hopefully can get this done before endo appointment and get her input first. I know that dose might be high but I think I will stick with that and monitor sides till bloods get done. I will try to put together a list of bloodwork for request and have you guys have a look before I submit if you could.

Suggestions welcome on bloodwork or anything else as always

Thanks


#13

[quote]KSman wrote:
D3- 8-12 IU (tablets)

That is homeopathic!

Body temps are strange, 98.6 waking is not expected.
[/quote]

Typing error , fixed in original post now.
8000-12000 IU with tablets, intend to switch to oil base and lower dose when these run out.

Yeah my temps are all over the place, lost most of original readings but from bedside notebook waking temps have been: 96.8 (NOT 98.6), 96.8, 98.1, 96.4, 98.0, 98.0, 97.0

Will post solid data on all day temps in a few days.

What kind of supps usually contain Iodine besides a Multi? Didnt see anything at the store yesterday

Thanks


#14

So heres the temps I have recorded

(only have waking temps for first seven days)
96.8, 96.8, 98.1, 96.4, 98.0, 98.0, 97.0

next five days :

Day one
97.3 wake 10am
98 5pm

Day two
97.3 wake 10am
97.8 4pm
97.3 10pm

Day three
96.7 wake 9am
98.3 6pm
97.8 9pm

Day four NO SLEEP
97.6 9am

Day five
97.5 wake 12noon
97.6 6pm

Comments?


#15

You probably are iodine deficient, body temps are consistent with that.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=idoral+amazon

Hard to find, all of the lunatics have been buying up iodine because of Japan nuke.

Context here:


#16

Thanks KSman,

I have read your thyroid thread which had spurred me too do more reading in that area. Not every little thing fits exactly but it seems to make sense enough that I should give it a try. Everytime I read something about the amount of iodine the Japanese take in via kelp and seafood I have a little chuckle to myself and wonder if this might be why I find myself craving sushi often. I still have not found any iodine locally but will look harder or try online.

I wonder what effect it will have on my ever present feeling of warmth compared to the people around me. Last night was at a friends and the other three people there were all bundled up in sweaters and such and complaining about the cold while i was a feeling too warm in shorts and t-shirt. Took my temp and was at 97.2. Very common situation for me, face and head especially red and hot.

Anyone hypothyroid but hot not cold feeling?

Another T shot at Drs later today, I will mention aching balls as they are a bit more sore lately but also feels like it maybe a hernia.

Thanks


#17

i-Throid is an iodine product that looks similar to Iodoral with the added bonus of online retailers actually having it in stock (it is also quite inexpensive).


#18

Thanks Anonym,

Found another product locally and started on it on Tuesday with some interesting results.

First I should note that each time I have started on T shots I have had a sudden weight gain 0f 6-10 lbs over a day or two at some time in the first 3-7 days, I have assumed it was water weight from E2 and other adjustments especially as I can see my body smooth out when this happens. This particular time I went from 213 to 220 on day 7 and at day 26 I was up to 230lbs but not looking or feeling fatter than I had been at 220.

So on day one I started new sup which contains Pottasium Iodide 8mg and Iodine 4mg.

Day one - 230lbs at waking. Overall feeling about 30% better than pre T shots
24 mg P Iodide and 12mg Iodine (3 caps) started at about 11 am.

Day two - 220lbs at waking. exactly 10lb loss in one day, don’t know why, did look or feel any different as far as water retention but did feel a little nauseous and tired more like I was pre T.
16mg and 8mg (2 caps)

Day three - 222lbs, slept in about 3-4 hours later than what has been usual. Felt Like crap all day, could not go to gym, very dizzy, tired, nauseous and achy, worst day in a while since my symptoms got real bad a year ago. Feels much like the flu, which it may well be I’m not sure.
8mg and 4 mg (1 cap)

Day four - 223lbs, symptoms persist but have lessened to near my normal.
8mg and 4mg (1 cap)- that will be all for today.

Temps have remained at 97.8-97.9 all four days at the times I have measured.

Thoughts? I dont recall reading about these symptoms from Iodine sups, maybe not related? Should I continue? Dosing? Possibly related to E2?

Also, I am aware that changing too many things at once may create its own issues and questions but I am wondering if I would have time to try the HCG and Arimidex protocol on my own to gauge its effects before my endo appointment in 2 weeks? Family Dr will not prescribe at this time. My thinking was that if I could try it and it works, hopefully I could feel better for a few days then I could get off before endo sends me for bloodwork. If it worked I would then push the endo hard to prescribe it.

Would I have time in two weeks to try it and see how it affects me then get off in time so as not to affect the bloodwork ?

Maybe a waste of time, maybe the endo will be fantastic and thorough but I am not holding my breath.

Hope thats not too much rambling and makes sense!


#19

There are some that react badly to higher dose iodine, not enough to disturb gut flora, who feel bad because the iodine is releasing bromine and other halogens from the body [toxins]. Those halogens occupy spaces where iodine would otherwise be stores and recovery of iodine stores can release the toxins. So in that case, one has to stay the course and get the [unpleasant] job done. Those who do not understand this, will understandably quit.

Keep going to recover body temps, they will tell you what is happening. Make sure that your thermometer is good, test on others. Can’t be talking, drinking or eating before checking.

As for anastrozole. Many are forced to self medicate and will not suffer for the ignorance of available health care. hCG is much more difficult in that regard.


#20

Thanks KSman,

I just re-read your Thyroid Problem thread, there was more info there than I first took in regarding gut effects, thanks for that. I think I will try to cycle the dose up and down guided by a reasonable tolerance of the gross feeling side effects. Maybe the worst is over from the initial higher dose and the sides wont be as bad as the level in my body gets higher?

Regarding HCG do you mean just that its more difficult to obtain or did you mean something else?

Thanks


#21

hCG is hard to obtain for those who would self medicate.

After taking iodine for a while, if one is feeling poorly from liberated bromides that are getting flushed out, then when that phase is over it should be smooth sailing.


#22

Dr wanted bloodwork after i felt so ill at same time as starting iodine and feeling generally ill possibly/likely as per KSman’s thoughts above. The blood work highlites that were out of range are as follows;

APRIL 15
WBC 11.5 (range 4.0-11) 109/L
Platelet Count 447 (150-400) 10
12/L
RBC 4.72 (4.3-5.9) 10*12/L
Hemoglobin 149 (135-180) g/L
Hematocrit 0.46 (0.41-0.52) L/L
MCV 97 (80-100)f/L
MCH 31.6 (27-34) pg
MCHC 325 (323-365) g/L

Neutrophils 5.5(2.0-8.0) 109/L
Lymphocytes 4.6 (1.0-4.0) 10
9/L
Monocytes 1.2 (<0.9) 109/L
Eosinophils 0.1 (<0.8) 10
9/L
Basophils 0.1 (<0.3) 10*9/L

RBC Morphology Poly 1+
Platelet Estimate INCREASED

Glucose Fasting 5.2 (3.6-5.5) mmol/L
hrs after meal 10
Hemoglobin A1C 5.3 (4.8-6.2) %

Sodium 141 (135-145) mmol/L
Pottassium 5.4 (3.5-5.0) mmol/L
Creatinine 76(45-110)umol/L
Estimated GFR 96 (>59) mL/min/1.73sq.

ALT 31 (<50) U/L

Dr assumed some type of infection or virus or whatever for the first 4 tests shown. No ideas on the Pottassium but to monitor it.

APRIL 29
Pottassium 5.5 (3.5-5.0) mmol/L
dropped my BP medicine (mavik) and replaced it with a water pill - hydrochlorothiazide. (mavik increases pottassium retention and hydro decreases it)

MAY 6th - (yes this is after the endo visit of MAY 2)
Pottassium at 4.7 mmol/L (3.5-5.0)
Monocytes 1.0 (<0.9) 10*9/L

Most values were back in normal ranges and I felt better, Monocytes were still slighty out of range at 1.0 . I have no idea what this means but I have noticed this on other bloodwork from time to time.

MAY 2nd I got in to see the new endo, SHE took a history, did a full physical exam, reviewed previous bloodwork and ordered some new bloodwork.
Not very hopefull about this new Endo as she was dismissive and said many silly things during this appointment, too many to list, one example is she said - well, your testosterone level was not really that low, it was barely below the low range of normal…
I have still not heard from her 2.5 weeks later but she has had communication with my family Dr.

MAY 2 (last shot 80mg Test. on April 28) I don’t have a copy of these so only what I remember -
ALT - 30? FROM MEMORY (<50) U/L
AST - 30? FROM MEMORY (<36) U/L
Prolactin 14.5ug/L (5?-15)

2 weeks past Endo visit got new bloodwork from family Dr.

MAY 14 (last shot 80mg Test on May 10th)
WBC 10.9 (range 4.0-11) 109/L
Platelet Count 374 (150-400) 10
12/L
RBC 4.50 (4.3-5.9) 10*12/L
Hemoglobin 143 (135-180) g/L
Hematocrit 0.46 (0.41-0.52) L/L
MCV 96 (80-100)f/L
MCH 31.8 (27-34) pg
MCHC 332 (323-365) g/L

Neutrophils 5.5(2.0-8.0) 109/L
Lymphocytes 4.0 (1.0-4.0) 10
9/L
Monocytes 1.1 (<0.9) 109/L
Eosinophils 0.2 (<0.8) 10
9/L
Basophils <0.1

Pottassium 5.3 mmol/L (3.5-5.0)

Estradiol 43 pg/ml (<42.5) *I converted this one, actual labwork says 159 (<156) pmol/L
Testosterone 17.6 nmol/L (8.4-28.7)
Free test calc. 628 pmol/L (200-800)
SHBG 10 nmol/L (13-71)

Do not know why the Pot. went up again, upped the hydro dosage, Dr wouldnt discuss changing much else.

Curious if anyone has any insight into the pottassium going up, never have had this issue before.
I have just heard of a new DR that may be more capable and will try to see him first but
it seems like i may need to self start AI and HCG as it doesnt look like I will be supported on this front. Thinking of keeping the Test E at 80mg 2x a week and adding 250iu HCG EOD and 1mg Arimidex per week (divided doses) or 6.75-12.5mg Aromasine EOD depending on what i can get my hands on.

Appreciate any help!

Edit to add more lab results May 22


#23

have you ever tested your Aldosterone levels? if not, you may want to research that topic.

have you had any additional tests of your thyroid functions like free T3, or Cortisol tests?

there is also a blood test that can confirm your iodine level.


#24

Thanks Pure,
I will check into all that you mentioned, never tested or heard mention of any of those except the cortisol once - *Cortisol = 197 nmol/L (171-536) [7.14 ug/dL (6.2-19.43)]

It sure would be great to be tested for all or most of the things I have requested at the same time by someone who knew there way around, i would be 6 mths ahead of where I am now I’m sure, I will keep working on it.

Best advice I would give to anyone with any kind of complication in there case, which is a high percentage I’m sure, would be to put a pile of effort into getting with the right caretaker asap.
Don’t quit looking for and interviewing and booking appointments with people until you are sure they will provide needed services.
You don’t want to wait a week or 2 mths to get in to see someone or get some test done and it turns out to be a step in the wrong direction and have to start all over with nothing lined up.


#25

if you check out my thread MY HRT JOURNEY (SO FAR) with the link to my blood tests, you will see 3-4 years of random docs performing random tests which makes diagnosing and discovering the actual underlying issue almost impossible.


#26

Listing only labs that out of range is very wrong. We can see things that doctors should be concerned with, but they are slaves to the normal range.

“Estradiol 43 pg/ml (<42.5)”

This is a huge problem. You should be taking anastrozole, 1mg/week for every 100mg T injected. Read the stickies for more details.

High estradiol can create water retention. Get E2 near 22pg/ml and then see what the problems are after that.


#27

You are of course correct about incomplete labs, I have updated the post with all I could.

I’ve been waiting to finally get to the point where I could show that E2 was high so I could get on with correcting it, finally have some documentation.

Started new setup on the 20th with the initial idea of keeping the Test E at 80mg 2x a week and adding 250iu HCG EOD and 1mg Arimidex per week. Opened the anastrozole I picked up and found that it is 1mg powder filled capsules. I am concerned about accurate dosing as I do not have a scale and I cannot be too positive of exacting potency anyways.

I took one cap and tried to dissolve the contents into vodka. I stopped adding vodka at 9cc’s but it did not dissolve well. I wonder if the undisolved sediment would be filler only?

Day 1 -80mg Test E (Tuesdays and Fridays for a total of 160mg/week)
-Approx .33mg Anastrozole
-250 iu HCG SQ
Day 2 -Approx .33mg Anastrozole
-500 iu HCG SQ
Day 3 -Today - no meds
Day 4 -Tommorrow - then EOD for now(?) of -
-Approx 0.5mg Anastrozole
-250 iu HCG SQ

This would put me at 1.75mg Anastrozole per week on 160mg Test, close to 1.1mg Anastrozole per 100mg Test. Thinking this should be ok to start.

Could I also go to protocol of same amounts of Anastrozole and HCG on Tuesday, Friday and Sunday if i need a small downward adjustment? Then would be at 1.5mg A per 160mg Test or .9375mg/100mg Test.


#28

Went to the Dr today and was happy to see that he had received a two page report from my Endo visit at the beginning of the month. I was very excited as 22 days is a long time to wait for an EXPERT opinion, finally some answers! Well she could have saved a lot of paper…

Her brilliant insight?
“I would not treat with testosterone. Advise him to lose some weight, being overweight can cause symptoms of low testosterone”

Thanks for the education doc, well worth the wait, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Although I guess I better not cry as that may increase my estrogen level or something (yes-I’m joking)


#29

sorry excel. Sounds like a typical endo.

what did your doctor say?