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Currently taking BCAAs, and i was taking a dextrose/creatine/Beta-alanine supplement, but i've decided to forego pre-workout carbs. anyone have any suggestions/ratings of pre-workout products that may contain all of the above -the dextrose? (BCAA, creatine, Beta-A) can contain caffeine and other stims, although i dont care either way.


ANACONDA Protocol.


1MR, jack3d, razor8 and super freak are top notch.


ANACONDA is carb-less?


the label is right there, bro.


my fault, didnt see that "label" button.. haha

any other supps?


Just wondering why you're avoiding pre-workout carbs? I used to adhere to that approach at times, thinking that post training was a better window, but since switching my focus to pre and avoiding post, I find that I can retain more LBM and stay leaner.




I would love to here your thoughts on why you do this and why it is more effective. If you have already stated it i am sorry. I keep up with your contest thread but swear i havent read it there maybe i missed it though.



I have thought about this and devised what my perfect pre-workout formula be. I don't believe any such supplement exists so if some big company would like to produce this I will be glad to hold the patent!

10g BCAAs
5g creatine
1.5g beta-alanine
2g citrulline malate
500mg chocamine
150mg caffeine
200mg grapeseed extract
100mg Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA)
600mg electrolytes
500mg Alpha GPC
And some flavouring to stop it tasting like battery acid.


My thinking is really two-fold:

1-By having a more productive training session (carb fueled), I put my build/repair machinery into high gear. I think this is much more effective in the long run to LBM preservation ('Give the body a reason to keep the muscle!')

2-As my peri-workout nutrition is covering all of my bases, I don't feel as horribly depleted after lifting that I have to rush and get some carbs in me to start repairing right away. As the nutrients being called upon during my sessions never gets completely run through, there's no real need to replenish everything ASAP.

I train in the evening during the week, and as your body runs primarily on fatty acids while sleeping, keeping my post workout /pre bed meal P+F seems to hold me just fine until I load the carbs in with breakfast the following morning.



I`ve been doing this Stu for about 3 months now and would agree for everyone to try.

I just do a simple 3 scoops gatorade and 5 g creatine pre and post. There is no need for me to take preworkout supplements anymore (N.O. vasodilators/caffeine).


That makes sense. I use pre workout carbs, peri workout carbs and post workout carbs. But i am also in a mass gain phase and trying to gain as much as possible before med school in aug. Right now i have the oppurtunity to train as much as i want/ am able to recover from and eat mostly free food. Also seems to take a lot for me to put on any fat so this has been working for me. Plus on IG3 so i basically consume carbs all the time.

Thanks for the input stu


My reasoning would be following IF protocol that Dr. Berardi has laid out. I used to take pre-workout carbs, and just recently, the last couple weeks, i've started not to. I can't say i've felt any less productive in the gym, and in fact set a PR (for me) in BBbench, 3sets of 6 @ 225lbs. I'll usually have a scoop of "Results" by atlargenutrition before my Heavy Leg day, and sometimes before Heavy upper body, as i am following Joe Defranco's West Side.

I really want to get into the notorious single digits of BF, and then start a clean bulk.. IF seemed like a legitimate approach to this goal. CLEARLY you know your shit, i'm not questioning your methods whatsoever, however i am also not as lean nor as JACKED. so i figured get lean, then jacked? haha thanks Stu


Geranimo works great for me. Google it....

EDIT: Definitely agree about the pre w/o carbs -vs- post. I still have post in the form of a Gatorade in my shake but it is minimal at best.


Guys, just remember that there are many ways to approach things. If I didn't compete, and was cool with getting softer than I currently like to, I'd probably toss some carbs in post even at night. Actually, I do on my high carb days when cutting, as well as on weekends when I train earlier in the day.

This approach has worked well for me, and I believe is a key element that has allowed me to step onstage heavier with each contest I've entered



My current pre-workout meal is a large bowl of oatmeal, 2 strawberry pop-tarts, and a big bottle of Surge Workout Fuel.
My post-workout meal is usually a large pizza, with everything on it.

Carbs FTW!

..and no, I haven't gotten fat.


Stu, you never really addressed the idea of intermittent fasting and fasted training.. whats your opinion


To be honest, I've never really liked the idea of fasting in any sense. I know there's been some pretty well thought out theories written on the effects on body comp, but maybe I just like eating too much.

Certainly I'm not one of those people who clings tightly to old school approaches in light of the new, better discoveries, but it's not like the eating approach favored by athletes and bodybuilders for over 50 years has suddenly become flawed and stopped producing the top tier names (You'd be hard pressed to find a top level athlete or BBer who achieved their success via IF).

Besides, even though I DO believe that IF can be useful in terms of body recomp, until someone truly puts on a serious appreciable amount of muscle mass by incorporating fasting (not merely dropping some fat, after already being sufficiently 'big'), I don't think it will ever be accepted as THE preferred way to eat.

Fasted training was one of those things I would hear about it the muscle rags when I first started training in the mid 90's. Usually some IFBB Pro would explain why they trained first thing in the morning for the better GH release (same reason they downed tons of Arginine and Ornithine).

Of course I didn't know a damn thing back then, and I actually followed along, finding myself starving, dizzy and struggling through grueling morning workouts, telling myself that it'd all be worth it! -lol. IMO, weight training fasted is almost ensuring that you won't get the best training session in, which obviously goes against the goal of being in the gym in the first place.

Fasted cardio, while recent studies show that it's not any more beneficial to fat burning than cardio after eating, can have some benefits, which is why I do include SMALL sessions during my contest preps.



Reluctantly, I'd have to agree. In both Berkan's and Berardi's physiques, it appears that they've lowered BF% rather than actually putting on more size (Although Berardi claims to have put on something like 6lbs). This is my current goal, to drop my BF to the lowest it's ever been in hopes of being able to maintain a reasonable level while going on a mass phase.

IF seems to work well with my school/work schedule, so i will stick with it. I too enjoy eating, and it's quite "fun" to cram in a days worth of calories in 8 hours. However, It does seem counterproductive to train fasted in that your body is fuel-less.

Due to your comments/thoughts and obvious credibility, I think i'll add in some pre-workout, as the IF does allow one to consume a meal before workout, of moderate size; the largest still being Post W/o. Once again, thanks for the feedback Stu.


I would be interested in what you consider a reasonable level.