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Pre-Fatigue Confusion

Say you’re complaining that you feel chin-ups too much in the biceps, not enough in the back.

You do rows (which mainly hit back), then do chin-ups.

Do the rows;

1). Make the back tired before you even start the chin-ups, so the back cannot contribute as much as it usually would to the chin-up. The biceps, therefore have to pick up the slack and work even harder. Result = biceps work harder, biceps get more growth.

2). Make the back tired first with the rows, yet it has to do even more work in a fatigued state. As a result, the back works harder than the biceps in the chin-up. Result = back gets more growth.

Which way-around is it?

Why the fuck would I be doing rows for big biceps?

Rows are for my back.

They are for your back too.

That might alleviate some of that confusion.

-Guy with big arms.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the fuck would I be doing rows for big biceps?

Rows are for my back.

They are for your back too.

That might alleviate some of that confusion.

-Guy with big arms.[/quote]

?

Did you read my post?

[quote]alternate wrote:
Say you’re complaining that you feel chin-ups too much in the biceps, not enough in the back.

You do rows (which mainly hit back), then do chin-ups.

Do the rows;

1). Make the back tired before you even start the chin-ups, so the back cannot contribute as much as it usually would to the chin-up. The biceps, therefore have to pick up the slack and work even harder. Result = biceps work harder, biceps get more growth.

2). Make the back tired first with the rows, yet it has to do even more work in a fatigued state. As a result, the back works harder than the biceps in the chin-up. Result = back gets more growth.

Which way-around is it?[/quote]
I’d say you have to try it yourself. On some lifts I feel the pre-fatigued muscle much better and stop when it gives out. On other lifts I just use other muscles to lift the load. Try it instead of creating new threads about everything. Yes, I remember you.

BTW, you usually use an isolation exercise to pre-fatigue a muscle.

[quote]alternate wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the fuck would I be doing rows for big biceps?

Rows are for my back.

They are for your back too.

That might alleviate some of that confusion.

-Guy with big arms.[/quote]

?

Did you read my post?[/quote]

What exactly is going on here?

[quote]alternate wrote:
Say you’re complaining that you feel chin-ups too much in the biceps, not enough in the back.[/quote]
Have you tried the advice from any of the 20-something replies you got last time you asked this question, when you were feeling chin-ups in your biceps while using bodyweight + 120 pounds for 8 reps, about three months ago?

I’d start there. But because I’m a softy, I’ll add just one bit: The neutral-grip you’ve been using puts the arms in the strongest position and allows them to contribute most to the movement.

[quote]alternate wrote:
Say you’re complaining that you feel chin-ups too much in the biceps, not enough in the back.
[/quote]

Then I would do a different exercise for back

In the case of chinups (or pullups/pulldowns), you could try working with a partial ROM. Pull down to your chest, then only come up to where your upper arms are parallel with the ground, and repeat. Keep the tension on the lats the whole time.

Then, use something like pulley rows to hit the rest of the ROM, making sure you let your lats stretch completely at the beginning of the rep, and contract completely at the end.

And then follow it up with straight-arm pulldowns, which have absolutely zero bicep involvement.

[quote]alternate wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the fuck would I be doing rows for big biceps?

Rows are for my back.

They are for your back too.

That might alleviate some of that confusion.

-Guy with big arms.[/quote]

?

Did you read my post?[/quote]

Maybe you could fatigue Biceps before back, then you’ll be forced to use ALL BACK in you pull ups…lol

ALSO if you don’t like bigarm’s advice, you can always follow this thousandaire poster…

dying for lorez’s rate my physique thread…please just do it already!

RMP coming in 12-18mo. You can start a countdown if you want.

My advice, like everyone else’s, is on a take it or leave it basis. Those are a couple exercises and a routine that do a decent job working the back instead of the biceps. I didn’t come up with it; it’s basically what I’m using for myself.

If you think the advice is credible, then use it. If not, then don’t. Either way, I suggest trying the movements, seeing if it hits the lats how you want, and passing on it if it doesn’t. Only you know your body, all anyone else can do is offer suggestions.

I don’t have much to show because I’ve only been at this seriously for a bit over 3.5 months. If what I say works, you will see definite proof over the next 9 months. If it doesn’t, you won’t.

just pulled 295 for 3 today.

no belt
no straps

I’m going to stop giving advice on this forum. Instead I’ll just take info from the dudes way bigger and stronger than I am. There really is no shortage of successful bodybuilders/powerlifters on the internet who post their training/diet/supplements/outside life/etc and are available to give advice. It’s ridiculous to be a noob yet act like a guru, so I’ll shut up. Hopefully you do too

I do find it a little weird that LoRez seems to give advice here and there, BUT at least he has pictures up and doesn’t hide the fact he’s a beginner which is far better than a lot of other guys who give advice like they know what they’re talking about, and unless they are saying outright dumb shit you really don’t know.

People can read his advice, look at his hub or whatever, and then decide whether or not to take it. In the process he gets critiqued on his advice and learns stuff. He has probably read more books on training/etc than I have, and I don’t think regurgitating what you’ve read is SUCH a bad thing. What’s the difference between that and you reading a book? What really sucks is when people who don’t have any pictures etc do this, because as a newbie there’s no way to tell if they are one of the good guys.

although I really dislike the advice he gave in this thread lol

I don’t like the rep/set scheme here much, but this is where the exercise selection came from:

In the event the link gets removed, there was a four part series on back training published I don’t know when. Four contributors: Samuel Homola, John Grimek, Ron Lacey, and Dominic Juliano.

Juliano’s piece covered lat training specifically, and given Alternate’s post history, with his difficulty with MMC in general, and his concern about putting too much pressure on his lower back (doc told him he couldn’t ever squat/deadlift again, or something like that), I picked three of the exercises Juliano suggested that should at least help him feel the lats working, rather than the biceps. I dropped the one-arm row because too many people still end up using biceps on that until they get some MMC down (myself included).

JM’s or CT’s exercise selections are probably great too, however I haven’t tried them. I’m sharing what I’ve tried, and what’s helped me, especially with the problem of hitting lats and minimizing bicep involvement.

Does it answer the pre-fatigue question itself? No. Does it provide a few things to try to start getting the back to move the muscle? Sure.

If it helps, great. If it doesn’t, there goes a whole 15 minutes of experimenting in the gym to see if he can get the back actually moving the weight.

FWIW, Dom Juliano. I’d guess he knows a thing or two about lat training for a natural lifter, even if black and white and dated.

In summary: Don’t listen to me, listen to him. I don’t have much to show for it, he does.

[quote]alternate wrote:

2). Make the back tired first with the rows, yet it has to do even more work in a fatigued state. As a result, the back works harder than the biceps in the chin-up. Result = back gets more growth.

[quote]

This one.

You pre-exhaust the muscle you want to fail first.

3). You’re a beginner and shouldn’t be worried about pre-fatigue, but rather learning to perfect the form on all the basic movement patterns and improve your strength each week.

Partial range of motion on ChinUps worked for me in terms of feeling it in the lats. Never really had a problem feeling it in my lats when doing PullUps.

LoRez, as usual, is spot on with his point about partial ROM.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
3). You’re a beginner and shouldn’t be worried about pre-fatigue, but rather learning to perfect the form on all the basic movement patterns and improve your strength each week. [/quote]

I had shitty MMC on bench press. I fixed that by starting a few chest days on the pec deck doing high reps with low weight to get a little pump in my chest. After that, I hit the bench and the MMC was improved.

I’m a beginner and I know pre-fatigue is helping me perfect my form (ie MMC) on the bench press.

Using the pec dec before chest pressing was the best thing i ever did training wise. Even if you’re a beginner just do your pressing second in the workout and your chest will thank you, and so will your shoulders.

Instead of pre fatiguing your back try activating it before doing pull ups instead. That means do an isolation movement that you can feel in the target muscles well and do a few sets with a light weight at 12-20 reps then go on to doing pullups. Make sure your MMC in the target muscle groups is good while you’re doing pullups.