T Nation

Pre Dhea and Labs


#1

TTest 24nmol/L (10-33)(doesnt feel like its high, lol)
FT 54pmol/L (60-130)
Oestradiol(i believe E2) 147 pmol/L (40-250)
DHEA 2.8 umol/L (2.2-15.5)

39 y/o male

I have been using DIM and zinc a few weeks before these tests. Doc has prescribed me dhea 50mg, Im hoping this will increase my free T but concerned it will increase E, would this happen with such a low dhea level?? Getting another run of tests in 4 weeks, my doc seemed to know/understand when i mentioned estrogen antagonists, so possibly he is open to this.

Yes I have luv handles so need to lose some weight but this has been unresponsive to low carbs and training. Quick history, have chronic fatigue syndrome( reactive ebv/glandular fever) for last 8 years and have had good improvement with antivirals, so now im trying to get back into shape and get that extra boost in well being through optimising my hormones. I still have to be careful with overdoing things or I 'crash' but am managing well of late, so large volumes of work like long cardio and 2 hr weight sessions are out, i have to pace myself carefully. Pre illness was an oly lifter, so not green when it comes to training, periodically have done very abbreviated training over the last 8 years to maintain some sort of strength and that retired over weight rugby player look, lol.

any advise appreciated,
cheers!!!!


#2

Yes, E2 is high. FT is low, and that and elevated SHBG would be expected.

What is your sunlight exposure?
Taking how much vitamin-D?

Restoring DHEA may not improve T levels or increase E levels, but good to do nevertheless. May help with adrenal fatigue which can happen with stress or stress of chronic infections etc.

EFA's in diet?
Supplements?
Diet?

Are your serum glucose levels up? Blood pressure?

I do not know if your labs are age adjusting lab ranges there at age 39.

Thyroid levels are good? Morning body temps 97F or lower waking before getting out of bed?

Drugs, OTC and Rx can increase E levels.


#3

Thanks KSman, so lowering E2 help increase freeT? Also would nettle root have an effect on freeT which I have read about.

Vit D was low 12 months ago but now have it in the high range, I use 50000iu tab which i take once every 2-3 weeks, which has been effective.

I use alot of supps, mainly anti-ox's vit e, nac, lipoic acid, zinc, magnesium, DIM. I follow a low carb diet which i have done for years, I initially put on alot of weight(30-35kg) using a trycyclic anti-d for sleep and stopped low carb stuff, but have lost 15kg over last couple of years since back on low carbs, have been unable to lose this last bit of weight, probably inactivity didnt help, low carbs has helped me maintain my weight though and i feel comfortable without carbs as carbs seem to make my enrgy fluctuate and increase appetitte. Im 6ft1 and 120kg/260lb? was around 100-105kg pre cfs.

Blood glucose has always been good, BP 120-130/70-80, so no problems there. T3 and T4 are spot on.

CFS has also left me a chronic insomniac(supposedly common, sleep centre supposedly damaged) which i medicate intermittently with zopiclone, also a shift worker for over 20 years hasnt helped, have had sleep study done which ruled out sleep apnea, but i do get restless leg syndrome which i use neurontin(only at night) for which helps but can also put weight on, also dont seem to reach deep sleep naturally which is fun, zopiclone helps and from what i have read doesnt affect sleep architect and use mirtazepine occassionally which can also increase stage 4 sleep, but like most stuff that helps sleep seems to be prone to weight gain which is why i use these things intermittently, plus melatonin.

I train on average twice a week with weights that consists mainly of powercleans, front/back/overhead squats, rows, pull downs and presses, not all in one workout, so basic compound stuff, also walk 2-3 days a week for around 30 mins and alot of stretching for lower back.

So yes was abit of a mess and now have the upper hand on it and try and get back the 8 years i lost.

Appreciate your help.

cheers!!


#4

With nolvadex, does it actually lower blood levels of E2 or just compete for receptor sites without altering blood levels and thus still increase free T. Im in australia, and from what i have just gathered armidex isnt for use in males, so i think nolvadex would be easier to obtain legally. With armidex i would be running the gauntlet of obtaining overseas off the internet and our customs are the suckiest of sucks when it comes to the rest of the world, lol.

Ta


#5

BUMP!!!


#6

Nolvadex is a SERM. These block E in selected tissues, not all. SERMs chemically are estrogens and SERMs do activate E some E receptors in some guys, hence the wild mood problems with clomid.

SERMs increase LH and this increase T. Along with increased T, there is more E. So one must understand that SERMs actually increase E levels.

SERMs will not help with fat loss in many cases.

LEG.org: """A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site."

The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement. Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.

Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head.
"""

Again, lowering DHT is not going to improve libido. But more FT would increase libido... if E2 levels allow.


#7

Thanks for that info mate. In 4 weeks times i go for another blood test so i will see how the dhea affects the other hormones once i have dhea up to normal levels, only early days on dhea but am feeling alittle better, not konking out at 3 in the afternoon. If E is still high i will see if the doc will prescribe me armidex off label and get it from an internet pharmacy that i have dealt with before that has been reliable. Tell me if im wrong but most guys start armidex at .25mg e3d. As far as the nettle root go's, it looks like it would be good for every male for general health, will look at adding this to the mix once E is sorted.

Been having problems trying to find out what is a good level of E, most info is American and australian lab numbers are different. I believe oestradiol is E2 test, ranges are 40-250, im at 147pmol/L. I have read to get E below 90 and another i read to keep it around 60. 90pmol/L rings a bell for me as its in the lower 1/3 of the range which i have read is good level to run at????

Thanks again for your help KSman


#8

0.25 E3D might work out, could be on the high side.

22pg/ml * 3.671 = .8176 pmol/L
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/clinical_data.html

Aim for .82 pmol/L

Dose refinement calculations are easy, but you cannot fine tune a dose by cutting tablets.

Understand the issues for adex over-responders.