T Nation

Pre-Comp Cut Cycle

#1

I’m 32 years old, 6’2, 215Lbs and 12-13% bf. I’ve been cycling for 2 yrs (3 cycles so far always with pct and a min of a month after pct for recovery).

I’m currently getting my diet dialed in with lean eating, I’ve been clean-ish eating for several years and now just need to get it perfect, about to start my fourth cycle and it will be a cutting cycle. I am competing for the first time in about 3 months in an NPC show and I wanted to post my cut cycle with pct to see if anyone has any thoughts. It’s a solid 12 week cut cycle, followed by a 1 week break from injectables leading up to the show (prevents lumps) and 4 weeks of test ph afterwards before pct. Here it is:

Cut Cycle

Test PH med/short ester (2-3 day half-life)- 300mg/wk, 3 inj/1 ml per, M/W/F.

Test Base (no ester) - 300mg/wk, 3 inj/1 ml per, F/S/S.

Tren A - 400mg/wk, 4 inj/1 ml
per, EOD.

Mast M-300 (mix of 200mg enanthate and 100mg prop) - 600mg/wk for first 4 wks, 2 inj/1ml per,
M/F

Mast P - 300mg/wk for 6 wks started 2 wks after last M-300 inj, 3inj/1ml per, M/W/F

Anavar - 40mg/day for 12 wks

Clenbuterol - 40 mcg/day for 12 wks

T-3 - 25 mcg/day for 1wk, 50 mcg/day for 5 wks, then taper to 25mcg for 1 wk and 12.5 for 1 wk

HGH - 2iu per day first 2 wks, 2.5iu per day remaining 10 wks

HCG - 250IU 3 times per week M/W/F

Cabergoline - 0.5mg 2 times per week T/F

Exemestane - 25mg EOD

PCT:
Clomid: 100/100/50/50/50
Tormefine Citrate: 120 first 8 days
Nolvadex: 40/40/20/20

#2

I have a number of questions, but the first one is about the test base. Are we taking base as in no ester and in water? Because if so then that dosing schedule is not going to do you any good. If it’s something else then just ignore my comments.

1 Like
#3

Your gonna run it for 12 weeks straight at 40mch/day?

2 Likes
#4

I singled in on the clenbuterol as well, just like zeek.

My memory isn’t perfect and I tend to seek information that is relevant to my desires. However I am fairly sure that by week 4-6 the fat burning ability of the clen is going to diminish rather significantly. My week count might be off but I KNOW taking for 12 weeks straight is pointless. Some people like to ramp up the dose to counteract the diminished effects but I don’t even know if that works. Go read up on I believe it’s beta 2 up regulators, they are supposed to help the clen work better longer. I do remember very clearly, as this is what I honed in on myself and used with some effect, Benadryl is supposed to be one of the things that works to help clean work longer. I might be off on the beta 2 thing but it is a beta something up regulators and Benadryl is one of them. Even with the up regulators I wouldn’t run clen for 12 weeks. Maybe the first 4 weeks then the last 4. That way it will be giving you it’s best help right before you go on stage. With the four weeks off in between your receptors should be fresh enough.

I also got to chime in on what iron said but I will take it further. The only things I am clear on what you are taking is the tren A, mast P and orals. Can you just edit and say what esters they all are. Is test PH the phenylpropionate ester? Is the mast M a blend of enanthate and propionate? I do see that with a number of UGLs.

Give us the esters because if half of the mast m is a blend and half propionate then that two week break is going to loose the benefits of mast. You will get the benefits back fairly quickly with the mast P but commenting on how long of a break is too long is kind of hard without knowing.

You HCG dose is way off. I don’t even know if 2.5 iu will do anything. That has to be a typo. I think 500iu twice a week is standard. Usually those ampules come in 5000 iu or 2000iu but I have seen 10000, 3000, and 1000.

Since your taking HCG and even if you were not I would still say this. You can do PCT just fine with EITHER clomid or Nolvadex at your stated dosage. If you want to use both then cut both of those dosage levels in half. As long as you are not one of us guys that reacts to clomid then I don’t think your stated dosages will harm you if you take what you typed but really your just waisting money. Save that money for the next cycle or buy some more mast for this cycle with it.

Your stated aromasin dosage is WAY to high. If you are using a test base without an ester for the 300mgs a week, you really don’t have to use an AI for that, well maybe a little, like very little. So if your test PH is a longer chain ester you are at 300 mgs a week, maybe 12.5 mgs twice a week is what would work but even that is a high dose for 300 mgs of long chain test.
You will definitely not want to run that exemestane all the way to PCT. Your stated dose and running to PCT will crash your estrogen. Lower dose and stop using when you stop pinning long chain test.
I can’t comment on how to dose it if you are pinning a test base EOD. The effects of exe last about 3 days even though it’s half life is like under a day. Test base is in and out of your body in hours. I don’t even know how much of it has time to aromatize.

So in wrap up, please clarify some things so advice is appropriate.

One last thing, technically you have talked about a brand and that’s a no no here. In the future always use hormone and ester to list what you are taking. Saying stuff like deca durbolan anavar winstrol tends to not get you flagged but even those are brands. Definitely don’t list UGL brands of UGL names of products.

1 Like
#5

Yes!! Thank you for all of this. You were correct and I edited the post to reflect the esters and the HCG is 250iu 3 times a week I did this on my last cycle and I was able to keep the boys alive through a 16 wk cycle. I read about HCG potentially permanently damaging the Leydig cells in the testes if too much is used and/or for too long, so I figured 750IU per week should hit the sweet spot…and it worked perfectly.

I did read up on clen after what zeek said and the beta 2 receptor gets down-regulated in 4-5 weeks of use so I will adjust my dosing and I think I’ll follow your suggestion (first 4 and last 4).

Concerning the AI I usually have used adex in my last 3 cycles but I had some issues with estrogen the last time around even using adex and caber (got a small lump under one nip and it was definitely not prolactin induced). I think I’ll give your suggested exe dosage a shot and up it to 3 days a week if I need too.

And I understand about the brands I will edit and remove them. Thanks again, this is exactly what I came for, good solid advice.

#6

Your high exemestane dosage makes sense now. Again you need to lower it. Read on and your eyes will open.

Did you get the lump under your nipple when on HCG? I bet you did and I bet you kept upping the arimidex dosage too. Yet it didn’t go away or you saw very little improvement.

Am I close? How close am I? I bet I am just about dead on, the comment on it possibly improving a little bit is the only thing that I would think I might be off on. Don’t feel bad i know what I know through learning the hard way.

The exact same thing happened to me the first time I ran HCG throughout the cycle. It never happened when I blasted it for the month before PCT but once I ran a cycle with it bam I had like a peanut butter M&M sized lump under the one nipple. I was using arimidex at the time, switched to aromasin, even ended up taking a low dose of them both. Nothing worked until…I took the Nolvadex. The reason that ONLY Nolvadex would work is because HCG makes us aromatize test in out balls. Not sure on how or why but Iron is smart he might fill you in. So if test is being aromatized in our balls no amount of AI will stop that and again I am not sure on exactly why. So if the HCG makes our balls aromatize enough test to produce enough estrogen to get gyno then no amount of AI can stop that, only a SERM will block that estrogen from binding to the tissue and growing gyno.

A thing to think about since you are going on stage. Did you retain water your last cycle? When you go on stage you want to be as dry as possible. That HCG is going to put estrogen in your system, enough to possibly get gyno so I am willing to bet it would make you retain water as well. Since this is a contest prep I would re consider if HCG is necessary because it might work against you. It is a personal choice to use it and only you know if and how much water you retained last cycle.

With your two different masterons I wouldn’t take the two weeks off. I would play with the dosage and duration, I say that not knowing how many bottles you have and when you plan to up the dosage from 300 to 600 with the blended version. With the blended you can pin that twice a week and should be good or if you’re finicky about fluctuating levels you could lower the amount per injection and take it EOD but still for a total of the 300 then 600. Once you run out of the blend I would only wait half a week before starting the mast P. It is just such a great hardener and it helps burn fat.

With the mast m having some prop ester in it, it should kick in quicker than taking just enanthate. So if your bottle situation only allows you a total of 10 week’s total of pinning without the two week break, you could start the mast m two weeks after everything else. At least that’s what I would do. ABSOLUTELY change your pinning schedule days for the mast m, if you go twice per week then it needs to be Monday and Thursday. Waiting until Friday is going to make your levels fluctuate more.

The Test situation,…
The test PH schedule looks good.
The test base schedule couldn’t be anymore wrong than what you have. You need to pin the test base EVERYDAY or don’t use it and put that money into something else, like test prop.
If you get test propionate then you could run the test PH at the beginning of the cycle and switch over to the propionate at the time that let’s you run it right at the end of the cycle before you go on stage.
I have a feeling you are wanting to pin the test base f/s/s because that is when you can get to the gym or when you can get more time in the gym. Just understand that dumping that much test into your body for only three days out of the week is going to make some part of you crazy either mentally crazy or physically crazy.

With the anavar, I know everyone says it’s lest toxic to your liver, really it’s just less harsh on your body. Breaking that 17aa off of a molecule in your liver is going to be the same amount of toxic as a winny molecule or a anavar molecule.
I would shorten that part of you cycle down to 8 weeks and I would increase your dosage the closer you get to stage time.
You need to add in milk thistle and/or TUDCA. There is another one that helps your liver but I forget it at the moment.

Let us know if your going to just drop the test base, change how you pin it, or drop the base and increase the test PH. That way we can comment on aromasin dosage.
Even if you go to 600 test PH per week I would still say 12.5 mgs of aromasin twice per week as a starting point. (we addressed why you thought you needed higher AI dosage on prior cycles)

If you have not yet ordered your stuff maybe now that you know why you got the nipple lump sticking with arimidex might be a better choice. You know your arimidex dosage way better than taking aromasin for the first time. Since the lump was most likely from HCG and you now know how to handle that (Nolvadex or clomid but Nolvadex is Best) then sticking with what you know might be worth considering. And I do understand the thought process of why you want to go with aromasin, I did it myself. Just something to consider if you have not already ordered.

If you have run a T3 dosage like that before WITH tren then ok. If you have not run it like that with tren before, I wouldn’t up it all the way to 50mcg. To much T3 will flatten your muscle. Tren and to much T3 will leave you without ANY energy and UN controllably wanting sugar. Tren will still make me want sugar on it’s own but with T3 it is sick what I crave, even after I give myself some sugar. If you really want to go past 25 mcg then maybe try 37.5 mcg before going to 50mcg. Also you can run that throughout your cycle with no issue, provided your dosage is not too high.

I would still choose either just Nolvadex or just clomid at stated dosage. If you want both then cut those dosages in half.

One last one, why are you running 4 weeks of just test after the show? I am curious.

1 Like
#7

Yes, that’s test base (as in no ester) but it’s oil based not water. The reason I use it is on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are the days that I’m able to go heavy and spend 2+ hours lifting, Monday - Thursday I’m only afforded an hour a day with my schedule, so I use base as a kicker to really amp up the workouts.

#8

That was my thought, from what I’ve read some people ratchet it up to 100+mcg daily but that’s not sustainable. I’ve never run clen or t-3 so I’d appreciate any advice you can give.

#9

Iv never used it either altho I was interested in it at one point so I researched a lot. There is a bunch id different ways to run it. 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. 3 days on 3 days off. Then as you said some reccomend increasing the dosage up past 100. If I were to run it I would probably use a 2 weeks on 2 weeks off protocol and a 40/60/80 ramp up over the 2 weeks before taking 2 weeks off and see how I handle it.

So originally when I saw your aromasin dose running to pct I figured that was on purpose to crash your estrogen before you get in stage that’s a common practice to dry you out as much as possible. Altho I think adex is the preferred drug in that situation for recovery reasons. I’m not sure I’m getting a bit Outa my realm now.

@jackolee might be able to better help you as far as giving advice on pre-contest prep

#10

Wow, that was a lot of good information.

You reminded me about when I read up on HCG during my last cycle and now I remember taking some nolva in the middle but having to keep it to a couple of weeks in order to have enough for pct. I remember that it worked too but the lump came back after I cut the nolva.
And the reason I did and will keep the HCG while on cycle is I have a fiancé and she wants a baby. I shut down hard during my second cycle (test & tren) after 6 wks with 4 wks of tren left and 6 wks of test left, recovery was pretty rough with that one. Plus, I read a forum in which a highly accomplished and accredited (verifiable) MD who was treating low T patients (with the most patients treated in the US) posted his thoughts on HCG. He stated that recovery was much faster and a lot more effective if HCG was used on Cycle in conjunction with test and any other substances when compared to his patients who either didn’t use HCG or used it in short massive bursts leading up to pct. He even talks about using nolva while on cycle!! Here’s the link to the discussion:

https://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/do-you-take-hcg-while-cycle-505494.html

Okay so I need to order more nolva immediately…

I will change my Mast M-300 schedule as you suggested to M/T and I’ll push the M-300 two weeks out from the start of the cycle so there’s no break. And I’ll run the Mast P at 100mg EOD up until a week out from the show.

Also the test base I’ll run ED and just drop the dosage to 1/2ml or 50mg/day, I only have 5 vials/10ml per and typically I’ll only get 9 inj per bottle, so I did the math and applied it to my schedule and it fits and gets me right up to my show date. So that’s perfect for when I cut all injectables a week out from the show and I can keep running base with no ester up to the show date.

Lemme just say this…F*ck that’s gonna be a lot of pinning!..not looking forward to that.

I will order some liv52 for liver support and I think I’ll follow your advice with T-3 and keep it at 25mcg per day/12 wks.

Lastly, I’m running the test four weeks after the show to finish out all the product that I’ll have (with a taper down as well) and I’ve learned through forums, articles, and personal experience that you should always run test a min of two weeks after you drop tren if it’s in your cycle.

I appreciate all of this, money just can’t buy this kind of wisdom wrought from careful study and experience. Thank you, if there’s anything else that needs to be addressed I’m all ears.

#11

Does anyone have any advice for dosing of Nolva throughout a 12 wk cycle to combat some minor gyno from using HCG on Cycle??

#12

20mg/day is what is usually reccomend to prevent gyno

#13

Okay thanks I’m gonna add and order it now.

#14

So here is my revised dosing/schedule based on your suggestions does this look good now?

Cut Cycle

Test PH (100mg, 2-3 day half-life)- 300mg/wk, 3 inj/1 ml per, M/W/F for 12 wks. Then roughly for 4 wks after the show.

Test Base (100mg no ester)- 350mg/wk, 1/2 ml or 50mg per, ED for 90 days.

Tren A (100mg)- 400mg/wk, 4 inj/1 ml
per, EOD for 12 wks (roughly).

Mast Blend M-300 (100mg Mast P & 200mg Mast E)- 600mg/wk, start 2 weeks after cycle begins, 2 inj/1ml per,
M/T, for 4 wks.

Mast P - 400mg/wk, beginning the week M-300 ends, 4 inj/1ml per, EOD for 6 wks.

Anavar - 40mg/day for 12 wks .

Clenbuterol - for 4 wks 40/80/80/40. Then for 4 wks out from the show 40/80/80/40.

T-3 - 25 mcg/day for 12 wks.

HGH - 2iu per day first 2 wks, 2.5iu per day remaining 10 wks.

HCG - 250iu 3 times per week M/W/F for 12 wks. Then for 4 wks after the show.

Nolvadex - 20mg per day for 17 weeks.

Cabergoline - 0.5mg 2 times per week T/F, for 12 wks.

Exemestane - 12.5mg twice per wk Tu/F for 17 wks.

Liv 52 - ED/12 wks

PCT:

Clomid: 100/50/25/25/25
Tormefine Citrate: 120 first 8 days
Nolvadex: (after Tormefine)(the following 4 wks) 20/20/20/20

#15

Since you are using the Nolvadex specifically to stop gyno because of the HCG situation, try 10mgs EOD as a starting point. Up to 10 ED if needed and I bet you will not need 20 mgs at all. It has like a two or three day active life, not half life but it’s benefits last two to three days. Not sure about the proper term for that. So you will get a build up in your system at EOD and especially at ED.

Yes, lots of pinning. Are you familiar with sub q pinning? Typically sub q pinning let’s you absorb a bit quicker and since it is an oil based test base it should work well depending on when you pin versus when you work out.

As far as traditional intramuscular injections go,
I can hit each glute twice per week,
Each shoulder can take 1 cc a week weather it’s two 1/2 CC’s shots or one full cc shot,
Each lat can take one cc per week at the beginning but usually after a few weeks I can get two into each one per week,
Quads, not for the inexperienced or faint of heart, or people with Shakey hands but again I can get one cc per quad at the beginning then go to 2 per week later on,
After all those and I have never gone there, is trap shots but I have read they are fairly easy in the mirror.
I would definitely explore sub q shots for the test base.
The only areas I would use a long needle are glutes and quads. Everything else I can get with a half inch insulin needle, mind you I get the largest guage insulin needle I can find. 29 guage is memory serves me. When ordering make sure you get the ones with 1 cc barrels, some are marked in iu’s or they are 1/2 cc capacity.
If you oil is thick they also regularly carry 1/2 or 5/8 inch 25 guage 1cc set ups. They work well to, but those insulin needles are so small you can go slow and not feel pain which helps when your pinning a weird area like your lat.

Just a little bit more about that test base. Test suspension , test in water has a half life in hours. For no explainable reason test base in oil is listed as a 24 hour half life. Reason I put this in is keep that in mind as you dial in when you inject before your workout. You should feel some intensity especially at the beginning of your cycle. Just pay attention to when that hits after your injection and adjust your injection time so the intensity hits when you’re in the gym.

#16

Disclaimer: I have never used nolva on cycle I mentioned 20mg/day because I believe that’s what the doctor here at t-nation physiolojik had said was best

#17

I’m not going to be much help with regards to the contest prep cycle… That is a shit ton of drugs that your talking about taking. Drugs for fat loss, drugs to keep the nuts working, drugs to combat the side effects, and the list goes on. I’m a less is more guy and a firm believer that your biggest tools are going to be diet and exercise. For sure AAS are an awesome tool to get you ready to for competition, but in my opinion you don’t need nearly that much gear to prep for an NPC show. Now if you were a pro prepping for the Olympia that’s a whole different thing.

I just competed at an NPC show yesterday and was the most conditioned guy there in the Men’s physique category. Sure there were bigger guys, but I’m pretty confident that I was the leanest. Going into the show I took my TRT dose of Test E along with Sermorelin Acetate to boost IGF 1. 10 Days out I upped my Adex to 1mg daily to crash E2 and help eliminate water retention.

The rest was done with a disciplined prep including training, a cardio regimen, and a meticulously detailed nutrition plan that I followed to the T. If you need any help with nutrition, I’m your guy, but I wouldn’t recommend that many different drugs in your system.

Thanks for the tag @zeek1414

2 Likes
#18

How’d you do at the show? Based on your progress I couldn’t imagine you could be more prepared. You had your diet nailed down so hard. It was genuinely inspiring.

1 Like
#19

I did well. It was my first show and I’m no mass monster that’s for sure so I was relying on my conditioning. I came in at 5’9” and 155. I entered in men’s physique masters 35-45 and the open men’s physique.

I took 2nd in masters. The guy that won should have been doing body building in my opinion. He was probably 6’5” and maybe 230. Just a huge guy. But they gave it to him.

In the open I took 4th. I’m pretty pleased for my first show and the fact that I was 15 years older than a lot of the guys. Here’s a shot from the stage. Professional pics should be ready sometime this week.

3 Likes
#20

That’s really great! Your conditioning is phenomenal, well done and good work!

I’ll be competing in novice men’s classic physique in June. The main reason that I’m taking this many things is because my last two cycles I’ve been able to handle large amounts of gear very well. I’m apparently a “good responder”. And I’d like to do the holy grail of bodybuilding and recomp with a focus on cutting.

My last cycle was a bulk and consisted of a 500mg blend (200mg Test E, 200mg Deca, and 100mg Tren E). I pinned this 3 times a week for about 14 weeks. plus Test base 100mg x 3 times per week (on weekends). Putting me at almost 2 grams of gear per week. And anadrol 50mg ED for the first 6 weeks. I gained about 10 Lbs of muscle without any serious sides (pretty well controlled with ancillaries), and I’ve recovered pretty well after a proper pct.

If there’s any pro type of tips you can give on my diet I’m very interested, and you obviously know your stuff from the picture.