[quote]Muppet wrote:
] It is weird however, that according to his calculations, vertimax 3x better then squat and 7x better then power clean in producing vertical jump height. But I was under the impression that powercleans were generally better then the squat for that purpose.[/quote]
Unless you’re really strong, the limiting factor in speed is max strength.
[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
Unless you’re really strong, the limiting factor in speed is max strength.[/quote]
How strong is really strong in this context? 2xbodyweight squat?
You can check out vertimax.com for more information on the vertimax and light load training. This may be the perfect compliment to max effort training for athletes
I checked out vertimax.com before I posted my questions/comments.
In my opinion, the very site that exists to sell a certain product is not the place to look for solid information about that product.
Everything works…for a while.
I tried searching pubmed and scholar.google.com for vertimax studies to back up some claims but it didnt pull anything up.
What I want to know is:
Does vertimax produce different results then jump training in a double blind study.
Does vertimax produce different results then sprinting training in a double blind study.
Does vertimax produce different results then the squat and olympic lifts in people who already have solid strength and jump abilities.
Anyone of those questions answered would get me more interested in this vertimax thing, but vertimax is way off topic. So I’m sorry for discussing it here.
[quote]Muppet wrote:
Ross Hunt wrote:
Unless you’re really strong, the limiting factor in speed is max strength.
How strong is really strong in this context? 2xbodyweight squat?
[/quote]
Unfortunately, it’s hard to get that specific. In the case of jumping, you have to produce X amount of force to jump Y high, where X is dependent on bodyweight (this is ignoring jumping mechanics for the moment). If you can’t produce X to get to Y, you need to increase limit strength. If you can produce a little more than X but can’t quite jump y height, you need to improve rate of foce development to get to force X more quickly.
Did that make sense?
-Dan
Xen, I’d personally stick to the “Clean Snatch”. The way you work this one is to go at it with both high volume and high intensity. Possible injury concerns are scratches on the back and bite marks on the chest or shoulders area. Overtraining should not be a problem and is actually desired.
V
[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
Unfortunately, it’s hard to get that specific. In the case of jumping, you have to produce X amount of force to jump Y high, where X is dependent on bodyweight (this is ignoring jumping mechanics for the moment). If you can’t produce X to get to Y, you need to increase limit strength. If you can produce a little more than X but can’t quite jump y height, you need to improve rate of foce development to get to force X more quickly.
Did that make sense?
-Dan[/quote]
Yes, perfectly. Thanks.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Xen, I’d personally stick to the “Clean Snatch”. The way you work this one is to go at it with both high volume and high intensity. Possible injury concerns are scratches on the back and bite marks on the chest or shoulders area. Overtraining should not be a problem and is actually desired.
V[/quote]
HAHAHA yes definitely have been doing that…
actually I should tell you a few stories about my new girlfriend. Wonderful person (works with “special” kids), trained with Frank Shamrock since she was 16 up in San Jose at the American Kickboxing Academy…oh ya and she’s a freak in the sac.
Vida es muy bueno
[quote]Muppet wrote:
Yes, perfectly. Thanks.
[/quote]
No prob.
-Dan
[quote]Muppet wrote:
I checked out vertimax.com before I posted my questions/comments.
In my opinion, the very site that exists to sell a certain product is not the place to look for solid information about that product.
Everything works…for a while.
I tried searching pubmed and scholar.google.com for vertimax studies to back up some claims but it didnt pull anything up.
What I want to know is:
Does vertimax produce different results then jump training in a double blind study.
Does vertimax produce different results then sprinting training in a double blind study.
Does vertimax produce different results then the squat and olympic lifts in people who already have solid strength and jump abilities.
Anyone of those questions answered would get me more interested in this vertimax thing, but vertimax is way off topic. So I’m sorry for discussing it here.[/quote]
quick Q
How do you do a double blind study in comparing 2 different workouts? The person doing the workout is going to know which workout they are doing.
Both lifts have a place in a properly designed training program.
Both lifts can increase speed-strength as well as strength-speed; it just depends on the load used.
Use both in your training!
Snatch, obviously, uses lower weights and faster movement (about 65% of my clean weight), therefore it emphasizes the hip explosiveness and upward speed more. The catch is much more about hip/back/shoulder flexibility and stability. I like to use it at the beginning of my hip-dominant, deadlift days; sort of like a pre-fatigue excercise for more max-effort posterior chain work later in the workout.
I also do overhead press work later in the workout, so it sort of pre-fatigues my shoulders for that too.
The catch for cleans can be a lot more strenuous than for snatch, placing a greater burden on the quads in the form of essentially a front squat (if you’re going heavy enough to have to catch close to rock-bottom). So I like to use that at the beginning of my quad-dominant days as sort of a pre-fatigue for squats.
[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
Muppet wrote:
] It is weird however, that according to his calculations, vertimax 3x better then squat and 7x better then power clean in producing vertical jump height. But I was under the impression that powercleans were generally better then the squat for that purpose.
Unless you’re really strong, the limiting factor in speed is max strength.[/quote]
It may be a limiting factor but by no means is THE limiting factor.
Power Snatch according to Soviet data!
Brandon Green