I have heard of people increasing their deadlift by working just olympic lifts. One person in particular is John Sullivan, he competes in Strongman events.
I think Dan John also said Olympic lifting helped his deadlifting.
Louie is a genius, but he isn’t right about everything. No one is right about everything.
Think for yourself, find out what works for you.
I’m not going to bother getting into this debate. Instead I will point out one glaring error:
Yes, TUT is important, which is why the Olympic lifts are a great way to go. Generating power to lift the bar with speed creates a TREMENDOUS amount of tension in the muscles. The problem is that the “time” element in the O lifts is very short – less than 1 second compared to 2 seconds or more when grinding out a heavy squat or deadlift. The solution is simple: do lots of sets. The “time” element is cumulative. This is what Waterbury has been preaching all along - tempo is bullshit. All that matters is that you lift the bar as fast as possible to generate lots of tension, and you compensate for the time element by doing many sets.
For you guys that are looking to use the power clean in your training, refer to John Davies’ article “Mastering the Power Clean”. Just do a search. It’s a great article for the new guy trying to learn the power clean or for the experienced guy looking to put some extra weight on the bar.
This thread has taken an odd turn…
Bud Charniga, Olympic lifter and a representative for Eleiko Barbell had this to say at a recent seminar:
“Muscle mass is best built by heavier, slower reps, but it comes at the cost of de-emphasis on speed. This is called “coordination enslavement,” where tension in agonist muscles slows down and inhibits quickness and athleticism.”
I think the first part of his first sentence is qute telling. Whenever you introduce a great amount of speed you are taking away at least some strength (hence muscular growth potential as well) from the equation.
That is not to state that Olympic Lifters are not strong, only the foolhardy believe this. However, it does mean that in the pursuit of pure strength and or bulk, there are better ways to go about it than with Olympic lifts.
[quote]mfurci wrote:
Power cleans for strength and mass…Please. There is no difinitive proof olympic lifts do anything in regards to speed or strength.[/quote]
Isn’t this kind of an idiotic statement?
I don’t mean to get into an argument over what’s the best way to improve speed or strength, but to say the olympic lifts don’t do anything for speed or strength?
Would you mind posting references to some difinitive proof to back this up?
Nick
[quote]trap_builder wrote:
ANyone know the best way to do it for Mass or strength?
[/quote]
I say just drop the weight.
When I first started doing snatch and clean with light weights I’d lower it under control, but after a while it gets akward and uncomfortable. The shock of dropping the bar back to my waist wasn’t doing my shoulders any favors and I was tending to tear callouses. The clean is a case where I don’t think the “eccentric” phase has any real training value; if you want that kind of thing there’s better ways.
Nick
It is very surprising to find so many users at this site who do not appreciate the olympic lifts. I still do not have enough experience with them to make a judgement myself, but from what I have read at this site, they sound very effective.
I say this because writers here at T-Nation like Christian Thibaudeau think of olympic lifts as “Money exercises” which means they are some good shit to do.
A good article that shows this is one I read some time ago, called something like “Bodybuilding’s Best Kept Secret”, which refers to the olympic lifts.
As some have said, maybe some people are doing too low of a volume, and should think about what Chad Waterbury recommends: if you go for lower reps, increase the number of sets.
His name is Idalberto Aranda, and he’s from Cuba. At a bodyweight of under 170 pounds, he squatted (high bar, close stance, rock bottom) 640 pounds for a double. I’d say he’s pretty strong.
Also, Shane Hamman (Superheavyweight Olympic lifter for the U.S.) still holds the United States Powerlifting Federation record for Juniors (Ages 20-23): he squatted 1008 pounds. The guy wasn’t even strong enough to win a bronze at the Olympic games. While he never “disses” powerlifting, he personally feels the Olympic lifts are harder.
Personally, I think the Olympic lifts make one more “athletic”. To use Shane Hamman as an illustration, although he’s only 5’ 9" tall (and 370 pounds), the dude can dunk a basketball and do a backflip, no problemo.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
This is a great movement. When I perform them I always let the bar drop. I do five sets of five reps. Anymore reps than five and I seem to get a bit sloppy with my technique.[/quote]
Ok, this is going to take alot out of me, but I agree with Zeb here. Most OL’s don’t go past 3 or 4 reps for this very reason. Bad form in the OL’s = learning bad habits which are very hard to break.
Ok, a few things…
I can not believe the stupidity of some who post on T-mag anymore.
You can build mass with cleans. Check out the 94’s, 105’s and 105+'s the next time O-lifting is on TV. Most of the smaller guys dont get huge because they stay in thier weight class.
Check the pages of MILO out sometime and see if the O-lifts don’t add mass.
Hasnt CW been screaming bout rep speed for hypertrophy? No one said OL’s are better than Westside…there can be room for more than one method.
Second, a powerclean is racked in a 1/4 squat position. Can be done from the floor or from the hang. A Clean is racked in a full front squat position…and again, can be done from the floor or the hang.
Third, try pulling off of blocks occasionally for even more power/explosivness. If you are truly a trap_builder, the O-lifts and O-lifts off of blocks will build them…so will Clean and Snatch pulls.I reccomend doing Snatch Deadlifts for hamstrings and pros. chain.
A back like that is the reason why you O-lift.
There’s so many misnomer’s on this thread I don’t even know where to start.
Power clean can definitely ‘clean up’ your deadlift. 10*3 a good protocal if u can make it all the way through. Personally i’d just do 5-4-3-2-1(1-1-1) For power clean.
Can’t produce mass??? Ya, and CT got that big by doing tricep kickbacks.
Best bang for your buck? OLIFT
[quote]TunaGill wrote:
His name is Idalberto Aranda, and he’s from Cuba. At a bodyweight of under 170 pounds, he squatted (high bar, close stance, rock bottom) 640 pounds for a double. I’d say he’s pretty strong.
Also, Shane Hamman (Superheavyweight Olympic lifter for the U.S.) still holds the United States Powerlifting Federation record for Juniors (Ages 20-23): he squatted 1008 pounds. The guy wasn’t even strong enough to win a bronze at the Olympic games. While he never “disses” powerlifting, he personally feels the Olympic lifts are harder.
Personally, I think the Olympic lifts make one more “athletic”. To use Shane Hamman as an illustration, although he’s only 5’ 9" tall (and 370 pounds), the dude can dunk a basketball and do a backflip, no problemo. [/quote]
Actually, I think its the overall training scheme… also cause they lift fast, and the focus is on speed.
“His name is Idalberto Aranda”
I’m going to be repeating that like in fightclub, “his name is robert paulson”.
hahahaha!
—Mertdawg, come on man just listen to yourself…
Fine, valid point, how about ‘range of motion’ since we’re discussing things that are moot points. From the floor to overhead is an INCREDIBLE distance compared to a bench press or even a squat!
How about we DEFINE strength…since we’re arguing louie’s point about 400lb cleans vs 800lb squats and what not.
We all know about the mexico olympic experiments where Olifters out performed everyone in almost every aspect of fitness.
Regardless of what you say, I want to see a powerlifter with a huge squat, dead, and bench… does he have an equally insane vertical? can he beat olympic level sprinters in the first 30yrds of a sprint? How flexible is he? How well do they do when moving over to other sports, say strongman training? They do reasonably well…but who’s been tearing it up lately? OLYMPIC LIFTERS (ie, zydrunas zavickas,et al)
Now, i’m going to combat my own arguement by mentioning that this is not the powerlifter’s intention…they are a weight moving animal, nothing more. Fine, strength, how much can your powerlifter overhead squat? A 1.5x bodyweight OH squat is no joke, it’s something you can’t fake. You can’t wear a suit to make you better at it. Not knocking powerlifters, cause they do what they do…and they’re DAMN good at it. Their strength is unmatched but thats defining it in the realm of their sport!
But even Louie (and CW) have been trying to bash into our heads the importance of speed… why doesn’t anyone heed their cries?
If you want to take athletes that apply westside principles and have incredible all around results… look at **Defranco’s athletes… nuff said, these kids are INCREDIBLE. BEYOND incredible! I’m editing my post just to bring more attention to this point (hahaha), ME and DE lifts WORK plain and simple.
Though, olifting combines both of these you have to admit…just think about it… heavy weights lifted fast…
So what’s the point…Olifting, powerlifting… don’t be foolish. Training with an emphasis on SPEED is what is key.
It’s key for being “functional”, it’s even key for gaining size/mass.
Hell I learned that when i was still reading “THE CODE” every week.
Don’t just immediately knock olifting though it has a lot to offer in EVERY department.
"remember time under tension
Fine, valid point, how about ‘range of motion’ since we’re discussing things that are moot points. From the floor to overhead is an INCREDIBLE distance compared to a bench press or even a squat!"
Good point Xen.
To me, if a you can count while lifting a weight, it’s probably too lite. But that’s just me.
Not to mention the fact that a Snatch involves a fast pull, a drop into a full squat, followed by an overhead squat. And, a cj is a pull, rack, front squat, then jerk. How’s that for TUT.
Slightly off topic but not really…
Anybody have any suggestions on where to buy bumper plates? Looking for some for a home gym…ie they dont have to be callibrated to a microgram. Also, cost is obviously a concern and perhaps some of you guys know of a steal.
[quote]JD430 wrote:
Slightly off topic but not really…
Anybody have any suggestions on where to buy bumper plates? Looking for some for a home gym…ie they dont have to be callibrated to a microgram. Also, cost is obviously a concern and perhaps some of you guys know of a steal.[/quote]
Where are you located? I bought an 185lb set (bar & 140lbs) for $70 on clearence at a store called Dunhams.
I don’t know if it is a national chain but they are all over in Southeast Michigan.
I think I helped push this thread in the direction it has taken with the Louie Simmons quote.
Just to be clear on my position -
the original question was about using POWERCLEANS TO CREATE MASS.
Powercleans IMO are not as effective as deadlifts or squats in creating mass or for increasing limit strength.
They are very effective in developing explosive power/speed strength.
I don’t think you have to choose between one or the other. both have their purpose.
Its nice to see an Olympic lifter squatting a lot of weight. Nobody said they are weak. Do you think that guy squats a lot because he does Olympic lifts or that he has built up his squat so he is a more effective Olympic lifter? which is the chicken, which the egg?
consider that Shane Hammen (sp?) was an elite powerlifter before he turned to the Olympic lifts. He found them technically challenging, true. He got what, a bronze medal in the 2004 Olympics.?
He was very late to the Olympic lifts, yet he outperformed all the other American Olympic lifters in every weight class. How did he get so good in such technical lifts while having such limited background?
Because he was really strong. Why don’t the rest of the American Ol lifters do as well? are any of them elite powerlifters?
Again, I think powercleans are a great way to build power and athleticism. I think they belong in athlete’s lifting programs. I think their primary purpose it to develop power (speed strength)
I don’t think they are the PRIMARY way to develop mass or limit strength.
I also don’t think anything posted in this thread so far contradicts these conclustions.
[quote]Major Dan wrote:
I think I helped push this thread in the direction it has taken with the Louie Simmons quote.
Just to be clear on my position -
the original question was about using POWERCLEANS TO CREATE MASS.
Powercleans IMO are not as effective as deadlifts or squats in creating mass or for increasing limit strength.
They are very effective in developing explosive power/speed strength.
I don’t think you have to choose between one or the other. both have their purpose.
Its nice to see an Olympic lifter squatting a lot of weight. Nobody said they are weak. Do you think that guy squats a lot because he does Olympic lifts or that he has built up his squat so he is a more effective Olympic lifter? which is the chicken, which the egg?
consider that Shane Hammen (sp?) was an elite powerlifter before he turned to the Olympic lifts. He found them technically challenging, true. He got what, a bronze medal in the 2004 Olympics.?
He was very late to the Olympic lifts, yet he outperformed all the other American Olympic lifters in every weight class. How did he get so good in such technical lifts while having such limited background?
Because he was really strong. Why don’t the rest of the American Ol lifters do as well? are any of them elite powerlifters?
Again, I think powercleans are a great way to build power and athleticism. I think they belong in athlete’s lifting programs. I think their primary purpose it to develop power (speed strength)
I don’t think they are the PRIMARY way to develop mass or limit strength.
I also don’t think anything posted in this thread so far contradicts these conclustions.[/quote]
Took the words right out of my mouth, the Olympic lifts have there place, but if one’s main goal is mass, there are better ways.
I have trained with some national class Olympic lifters and when they decide they want to get a little bigger for whatever reason, they will no longer emphasize the O lifts. The guys you see in the Olympics or usually the exception not the rule, and keep in mind that most of these guys have been training for a long time, what mass they have developed took years.
The following are some recent comments from Eathan Reeve (Head Strength Coach at Wake Forest University) on his personally using the using the power clean to gain 25lbs at 35 years of age.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
"power clean and weight gain… From: Ethan Reeve
Subject: Fitness
Date/Time 2005-02-16 14:17:01
james,
Back in 1990 I did an experiment on myself. At the start of the experiment I weighed 175 lbs. This was in the month of November of that year. I was 35 years of age. Here is the workout:
Power Clean-198 lbs./15 sets of 5. Start a new set every 2 mins. Must complete in 30 mins. I did not do any other lifting during this 4 weeks.
Did this every Monday-Wednesday-Friday.
I did not do any other lifts during this time. This was struggle for me to do. Very hard work! I did this for 4 weeks with a total of 12 workouts. My bodyweight went from 175 lbs. to 200 lbs.
I didn’t drink the amount of milk prescribed by Super Squats. Super Squats does work. However, I would prefer athletes train squats and other total body lifts with more multiple sets of low reps. The Super Squats really take your legs away from you for a while.
I believe you can gain weight working hard with power cleans, power pulls (shrugs), push presses, deadlifts or squats. These are total body lifts. If you do enough volume with high enough intensity you can put the weight on if you desire.
Personally, I’d like to be getting rid of some weight right now though!
In Strength,
Ethan Reeve"
Try doing Power Cleans (or Snatches) with 80-90% of your max. They build mass.
When I competed in Olympic lifting (several years ago) and trained with two friends that still compete, I built a nice amount of strength and mass from the Olympic lifts, their variations and some basic squatting.
I recently used power cleans in my workout, and realized how much I miss doing them. Not to mention how hard they are on the body, but how good it feels when you’re done.