Power Clean Discussion

btw…a person’s power clean should be 80% of their full clean, if they’re doing it correctly, and the speed from the hip should be almost the same, in fact the full clean is a ‘quicker’ movement because you have to sling yourself under the bar while it is still moving upward.

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
but the real beauty comes from the catch.
[/quote]

That line opened my eyes a bit. So when doing a clean and catching the weight you are pretty much absorbing the force. Like a depth drop or depth jump right?
Is that what you’re refering to when you say the real beauty comes from the catch?

Absorbing the force…

I know I’m using this quote to death but

“Shall we have the lobster or the cracked crab?”

“Can’t we have both?”

“Dmitery, lobster and cracked crab for everyone”

“Extra-primo good Mr. Coleman sir”

Why not use both, you can’t go wrong.
and name that movie?

[quote]LittleBigMuscles wrote:
btw…a person’s power clean should be 80% of their full clean, if they’re doing it correctly, and the speed from the hip should be almost the same, in fact the full clean is a ‘quicker’ movement because you have to sling yourself under the bar while it is still moving upward.[/quote]

Good insight, and I agree that the full clean has a quicker movement (second movement) becuase of dropping to a full squat, but the speed of the hips should be faster because of the slightly lighter weight in a power clean. Am I correct in assuming that the hip speed is quicker becuase of the lighter weight?

You are right on about the speed in dropping under the weight in a full clean.

I don’t know if it’s been said, but it is a scientific fact that the clean produces more power output than the squat and deadlift combined. Send me a private message for the research.

[quote]Kir Dog wrote:
LittleBigMuscles wrote:
btw…a person’s power clean should be 80% of their full clean, if they’re doing it correctly, and the speed from the hip should be almost the same, in fact the full clean is a ‘quicker’ movement because you have to sling yourself under the bar while it is still moving upward.

Good insight, and I agree that the full clean has a quicker movement (second movement) becuase of dropping to a full squat, but the speed of the hips should be faster because of the slightly lighter weight in a power clean. Am I correct in assuming that the hip speed is quicker becuase of the lighter weight?

You are right on about the speed in dropping under the weight in a full clean.[/quote]

the hip speed of the second pull is roughly the same, its the bar speed which is slower. however for someone that cleans 30% more than they power clean (which is not uncommon), lifting the lighter weight in the power clean will allow for more speed.

but…it could be argured that attempting to move the bar as fast as possible is just as important as actually moving the bar fast…therefore using more weight and trying to move the bar as fast as possible would be more beneficial to explosive strength, if you beleive that theory.

Kir Dog~

Yes to the catch question… exactly. Do a block of Cleans from the floor with the catch in a full squat position, and then see how strong you feel in the hole… hmm… because the absoprtion you are doing in the full squat position helps to develop strength so much…

Or, do force drop squats, or oscillatory Isometric squats there… whatever you feel comfortable with…

Want to translate strength to on the field performance:

Build the strength in your weak area (most suck in deep angles which are necessary for great acceleration), so do Iso’s and Eccentrics through this range.

Then convert it to Force development (MASS x speed), heavy cleans with full squat catch, OI’s in deep squat, Force Drop squats, FD 1-Legged Squats, etc… tons of options. Then move to fully reactive this way…

Then go to Power development (mass x SPEED). I seperate Force into strength-speed, and power into speed-strength. So deep knee bend ballistics and reactive exercises…starting with absorption type exercises, moving to fully reactive.

Now see how well you defend, cut with deep angles, accelerate, etc. (IE, the age old “play low” that all short-bus coaches yell without realizing the athlete has no preparedness to actually do this dynamically).

Finally, enjoy the fruits of your effort.

BTW, you are right that most young kids see the best gains from strength training. My progression goes: BW and movement efficiency until 13 or 14, then work on strength and reactivity… slowly and with perfect form. The biggest jumps in perfromance for me are when my kids start to realize a nice strength to BW ratio… that is, after the intial jump from movement pattern corrections… you are very right… most are weak…stunningly.

Magnar~

I am pretty sure most 14 year old kids develop more force kicking a soccer ball than when they full squat… no? I played soccer and have a sick vertical… maybe it was my striking and deep passing training.

LOL, just giving you a hard time. You are right, but the strength base must exist also. Especially for kids who aren’t naturally built like gazelles.

J

Driveblock~

I am pretty certain that absolute strength potentiates explosive strength… which potentiates further absolute strength (displayed through lifting), which potentiates explosive strength…etc.

They squatted deep and heavy to potentiate the cleans, not the other way around. Notice that O-Lifters do powerlifting moves to assist their lifting… but not the other way around usually.

The training effects are easier realized in less technical lifts for powerlifters…ie dynamic squats, reactive work, etc.

J

[quote]Kir Dog wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.

It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.

I disagre a little bit with you. Power cleans are called “power” because most if not all lifters who consistanly work on cleans and the different variations can lift less in a power clean than in a full squat clean. In a full squat clean, you can lift more because you are catching it very low. Since the weight is heavier, the bar moves slower. The power clean is an easier movement that the full squat clean. Since you can’t lift as much weight in the power clean compared to the full squat clean, you are moving the bar faster, a lot faster than the full squat clean that may be only a little bit heavier.

example
full squat clean 225
power clean 215
not too much difference in weight, but a significant difference in speed, hence more power output. (My opinion)

Like in my above post, I think it will help young athletes such as football players because they need to incorporate some speed movements along with strength movements to develop power.

What good is strength for an athlete with out some kind of speed?

I don’t think they’d be as powerful as a guy who trains speed movements as well as strength movements.[/quote]

If they need speed, put them on a track. Case closed.

[quote]nbutka wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.

It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.

lol…so far off

if you have tried these lifts and havent had success…its typically because you haven’t had a good coach to teach you the lifts

or you havent had the patience
[/quote]

Had success at what? Becoming a better football player? Please explain what “success” power cleans will give me.

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Kir Dog wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.

It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.

I disagre a little bit with you. Power cleans are called “power” because most if not all lifters who consistanly work on cleans and the different variations can lift less in a power clean than in a full squat clean. In a full squat clean, you can lift more because you are catching it very low. Since the weight is heavier, the bar moves slower. The power clean is an easier movement that the full squat clean. Since you can’t lift as much weight in the power clean compared to the full squat clean, you are moving the bar faster, a lot faster than the full squat clean that may be only a little bit heavier.

example
full squat clean 225
power clean 215
not too much difference in weight, but a significant difference in speed, hence more power output. (My opinion)

Like in my above post, I think it will help young athletes such as football players because they need to incorporate some speed movements along with strength movements to develop power.

What good is strength for an athlete with out some kind of speed?

I don’t think they’d be as powerful as a guy who trains speed movements as well as strength movements.

If they need speed, put them on a track. Case closed.
[/quote]

Sure, track work is awesome. Neglect track work and you’ll likely fail. My reference to speed is the speed of a movement, not how fast you run. The speed of a movement such as a box jump or a clean. That type of speed can’t be mimicked from track work. The speed of a movement in a short range along with strength converts to the power I am refering to…not the speed of a 40 yd dash.

The other guy talking about success. I doubt he was talking about success as a football player. I think he was talking about success with cleans.

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
nbutka wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.

It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.

lol…so far off

if you have tried these lifts and havent had success…its typically because you haven’t had a good coach to teach you the lifts

or you havent had the patience

Had success at what? Becoming a better football player? Please explain what “success” power cleans will give me.[/quote]

I like power cleans from blocks the best. I do them in the power rack w/pins set around the knee level. Do those for 6-8 sets of 2 and focus on power, speed and exploding up. Then you tell me if that will not help you with just about any sport! If you still think that doesn’t do anything for you, then its pointless to discuss anything further.

Good post Jumanji.

I was going to post something similar (though not near as loaded with info). I’ve seen similar performance improvements from blocks focused on Olys as I’ve seen from blocks loaded with REA and force absorbtion work. A good, heavy catch forces you to accept and turn around a substantial weight while keeping the body lined up so as to balance the load. I think the fact that the bar is almost flying free through the air allows the body to put more into the movement than similar absorbtion movements done with a weight “stuck” to the body, if that makes any sense.

That said, most high school athletes would benefit most from the powerlifts for most of their time in HS. The strength is the foundation for everything else and until that is addressed, more complicated stuff is somewhat wasteful. I would teach the kids cleans as freshman, but keep the volume quite low relative to the power lifts until they had a solid base built. For instance, develop two team workouts, one for those under a certain lift/ bodyweight ratio and one more loaded with oly and other work for those above.

[quote]Kir Dog wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Kir Dog wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.

It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.

I disagre a little bit with you. Power cleans are called “power” because most if not all lifters who consistanly work on cleans and the different variations can lift less in a power clean than in a full squat clean. In a full squat clean, you can lift more because you are catching it very low. Since the weight is heavier, the bar moves slower. The power clean is an easier movement that the full squat clean. Since you can’t lift as much weight in the power clean compared to the full squat clean, you are moving the bar faster, a lot faster than the full squat clean that may be only a little bit heavier.

example
full squat clean 225
power clean 215
not too much difference in weight, but a significant difference in speed, hence more power output. (My opinion)

Like in my above post, I think it will help young athletes such as football players because they need to incorporate some speed movements along with strength movements to develop power.

What good is strength for an athlete with out some kind of speed?

I don’t think they’d be as powerful as a guy who trains speed movements as well as strength movements.

If they need speed, put them on a track. Case closed.

Sure, track work is awesome. Neglect track work and you’ll likely fail. My reference to speed is the speed of a movement, not how fast you run. The speed of a movement such as a box jump or a clean. That type of speed can’t be mimicked from track work. The speed of a movement in a short range along with strength converts to the power I am refering to…not the speed of a 40 yd dash.

The other guy talking about success. I doubt he was talking about success as a football player. I think he was talking about success with cleans. [/quote]

But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?

Jumanji is smart…

My high school has a lifting period for us football players, and almost every kid in there is doing them wrong. The coach is telling them when he sees it but there is like 50+ of in there so its kind of hard to see everyone. Most people dont even explode up with there lower body. They just use a light enough weight that they can clean it without there legs.

I personally find them both equally helpul as a football, basketball, and track athlete. In my opinion, the cleans are more initial explosive power, while squats and deads keep you going because they make you stronger in your lower body. However, I think that DE S & D can be very explosive if done right, but are still more strength/strength endurance, whereas cleans/snatches are more explosive.

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Kir Dog wrote:

But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?[/quote]

The Power clean isn’t some magical exercise, but taught properly, it will train you to triple extend under various resistances.

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Kir Dog wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Kir Dog wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.

It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.

I disagre a little bit with you. Power cleans are called “power” because most if not all lifters who consistanly work on cleans and the different variations can lift less in a power clean than in a full squat clean. In a full squat clean, you can lift more because you are catching it very low.

Since the weight is heavier, the bar moves slower. The power clean is an easier movement that the full squat clean. Since you can’t lift as much weight in the power clean compared to the full squat clean, you are moving the bar faster, a lot faster than the full squat clean that may be only a little bit heavier.

example
full squat clean 225
power clean 215
not too much difference in weight, but a significant difference in speed, hence more power output. (My opinion)

Like in my above post, I think it will help young athletes such as football players because they need to incorporate some speed movements along with strength movements to develop power.

What good is strength for an athlete with out some kind of speed?

I don’t think they’d be as powerful as a guy who trains speed movements as well as strength movements.

If they need speed, put them on a track. Case closed.

Sure, track work is awesome. Neglect track work and you’ll likely fail. My reference to speed is the speed of a movement, not how fast you run. The speed of a movement such as a box jump or a clean. That type of speed can’t be mimicked from track work. The speed of a movement in a short range along with strength converts to the power I am refering to…not the speed of a 40 yd dash.

The other guy talking about success. I doubt he was talking about success as a football player. I think he was talking about success with cleans.

But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?[/quote]

Let’s say we have 2 guys who run the 40 yard dash in the same time and their strength is identical in the squat, dead and bench. One guy practices clean variations.

The guy who doesn’t do cleans runs full speed to lay a hit on the running back.

Same scenario, guy who does cleans runs full speed to lay a hit on the running back.

Who is going to lay the hardest hit? They are the same size, same speed, and same strength.

The guy who practices cleans will lay the hardest hit. Here is why I think this is so.

The guy who practices cleans, practices a high velocity movement over a short range. He has developed some hip speed. This hip speed will create added power. When a person in football tries to lay a hit or a tackle, you have to drive with your hips to maximize power.

You’ve heard coaches say, “drive with your hips”. Even in wrestling, more hip power on a takedown can help a lot. So the guy who cleans, can hit harder because in that split second before he makes the hit/tackle he is able to recruit more hip speed as well as more overall power since he has practiced cleans, which is an exercise that trains your body and CNS to create more speed/power over a short range of motion (as oposed to sprinting).

I hope this makes sense.

It may not seem believable but this is just my philosophy.

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?[/quote]

I hope I don’t sound like Captain Obvious – maybe I didn’t understand the question.

But no weight training or conditioning program will be specific to any sport whose talents require anything beyond weightlifting. Weight training is general in nature, but can be tailored somewhat to help develop the physical capacities needed to succeed in a sport.

It won’t directly improve your technique (unless you had muscular imbalances impeding it to begin with) and it won’t give you a better sense of the game (although I believe it makes you stronger-willed). I think everyone agrees on this.

Similarly, it won’t improve your running stride directly, but all that hamstring and glute work in the weightroom will sure make it more powerful and therefore faster.

It’ll help you make the most of your potential, whatever that is. For example, you could have a great sense for the game, but be physically limited in strength and power and be prone to injury. Weight training will help you get the mass, strength, and, ultimately, power needed to overcome this weakness.

No one claims that it’ll have a direct transfer to the field. Only playing football will develop the specific skills necessary for football. Weight training is a very important supplement to these skills.

Again, sorry if I’m just stating the obvious.

Just to add one little thing to this conversation:

Re. that study. It comes up over and over again in online disputations, and there seems to be some question as to whether it actually took place.

Setting that aside, the study is usually dated to sometime BEFORE strength training was taken as seriously as it presently is, so there might be some question as to whether most of the track and field competitors even did any strength work. If they didn’t, then it seems extremely likely that a large part of their superiority in the power and speed events tested can be ascribed to higher limit strength levels.

Finally, max power cleans often look extremely ugly. That is to say, I am by no means sure that the most efficient way to power clean a weight will be an exercise that benefits an athlete as much as a clean pull.

For example, when I power cleaned more than I squat cleaned, I used my back like crazy and stomped my feet out too wide to get under the weight. This got me an extra ten pounds of clean, but I doubt that it did any more for my sprinting speed or jumping ability than it did for my oly technique.