T Nation

Power and Strength Athletic Cycle


Hi Guys.

I’m 24 years old and i’m planning to run a well structured cycle next month.

When i say well structured is because i used steroids before, but on bad way (anavar only; t-bol only; planned cycle but very injuried hoping that helps; poor pct) and not with a good weight training. Luck enough, i have no low test, high estrogen or any other condition.

Now i’m over a year on hard training (pure) and playing footbal in my country. Off course we are not well developed as USA or Canada.

I was a swimmer, nut as i said, have been playing football and lifting weights consistenly for about a year, and these are my numbers (play defensive end)

Height 173cm
Weight 95 kilos
BF 15-20%
10 yard dash 1.73
Squat (just a thin belt) 146 kg
Deadlift 182 kilos
Bench Press 116 kilos
Power Clean 100 kilos
Vert 66cm
Horizontal 270cm

The purpose of the cycle is to improve those numbers without adding too much weight (because of my height and i don’t want to lose speed). I am in-season now, but we have game 3-4 weeks apart, and practice evvery saturday and sunday.

The planned cycle is:

12 week steroid cycle plus 4 week PCT
1-9 sustanon: 250mg every 10 days
10-12 test prop: 200mg every week
1-12 winstrol: 50mg EOD
1-11 deca: 100mg every week
1-12 HCG 250Ui 2x/ week
1-12 Arimidex 0.5mg every three days
13-16 Arimidez 0.5 EOD
1-12 Nolvadex 20mg ED
13-16 Nolva 40mg ED
13-16 Dianabol (cortisol supressing) 10mg ED

I’m really convinced about the Winstrol dosage (many talk about 50mg ED for 8 week, so 12 weeks EOD ain’t gonna be a problem, and i can run tests for liver) and the HCG ( doctor of TRT talking about how much more HCG can increase testicular aromatase and/or desensitize). Also, i’m not going to stop the TPC after the 16 week, but rahter diminishing the dosages week by week to prevent estrogen rebound.

My doubts are:

  1. Do you think that those steroid dosages are enough to support my goals? (i’m not a bodybuilder, i’m not an NFL player).

  2. Do you think that aromatase acitivy is gonna be a concern so i need AI’s?

Forgot to mention, but one of the reasons i’m using such low dosages is that i plan to do more cycles on future, so i wanna start low, and keep adding.

Thanks for your help.


Looks mostly fine but your dbol is in the wrong place. Don’t do it during PCT. If you’re taking winstrol anyway and not looking to add a lot of weight I’d drop the dbol entirely.

Run the sust at 250 per week instead of every 10 days, preferably split into two doses per week.

I’d run the winstrol at 25ED instead of 50EOD.


Hey Juggs, thanks for the help.

Do you think that de Dbol is gonna add too much weight even at 10mgED? I mean, weightlifters used it for years wthout moving weight class. I’m gonna be using lots of anti-estrogen and estrogen blockers, so the weight gain ins’t supposed to be minimun? What can I do to help fight the crtisol raises?

What about the sust 250 per week?

I thought about the same thing for the winstrol, but i will get pinned every day… :sweat: hahahahhaa


that cycle is just horrible…

  1. testosterone will give you every thing you’re looking for… if you want to minimize the gains in size, just lower the dose. 300-400 mg of test e/cyp a week would be just fine. but sustanon is a headache to come off of, due to the long esters in it…

  2. winny sucks for athletes. plenty of guys i know blame tendon ruptures on Wintrol…

  3. don’t take nolva on cycle, unless you’re specificlly dealing with gyno.

  4. don’t take d-bol in PCT.

  5. if you have a drug test, then don’t take deca…

i have a question: are you talking about American rules football? i’m a little perplexed how a guy your size is playing d. end…

below is a link to a basic cycle thread which you should read thru:


I guess I don’t have much to add to what Cyco said. I pretty much have the same input. There are so many things here that don’t make ANY sense.

You’re TINY for playing defensive end. Is this just like a recreational league or something? You’re obviously not a pro or even a high level amateur. I think it makes absolutely no sense to be running a steroid cycle for increased performance in your sport, when you’re obviously horrible at playing your sport. If you were good, you’d be in a league that had bigger defensive ends. You can’t even bench press 300 lbs, and you barely squat more than that. How in the world are you going to get past offensive linemen?

Aside from all that, your cycle is horribly constructed. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone propose dbol in their PCT before. That’s a first for me. And 12 weeks on winstrol? You have no clue man. The fact that you’ve run several cycles before is also mind boggling to me. You’ve basically indicated that it took you 3 previous cycles to still bench less than 300 lbs and be a shitty football player.



Thanks for the help man.

1- I was considering using test at low dosage (but greater than natural levels) and combine that with the effects of deca and winstrol, both at a considered low dosage for bodybuilding standards) but with a great impact on athletic performance. I know that dosage can be enough on a test only cycle.

2- Winny has been a staple for speed-power athletes for many years. I not well convinced that winstrol can be all that bad for tendon, and the research hasn’t show that it causes such problems. It can even help. Do you think those problems can happen even in such low dosage and using deca and test with?

3- can’t nolva help with LDL/HDL problems? Besides, it blocks Estrogen on the hyphophysis and hypothalamo, helping to diminish the damages on HPTA.

4- why not?

5- No drug tests!!! Hahahahaha

Yeah, like i said we’re not that developed, there’s no chance you can take the paremetersof NFL or CFL and put around the globe. I have a hard time when the Guard came to me on a run play, but i’m fine about the Tackle hahahaha

Great post. So AI’s are useless on PCT?
What do you think about my idea of diminishing the dosages week by week to prevent estrogen rebound?

Thanks for the support


Flipcollar, i’m so sorry for you that you’re writing shit down behind your computer. You’re not at any professional league are you? First of all, drop the TINY shit. Second, read that again before saying about my lifts or my previous cycles. . Third, I asked for help about my cycle, not my chances at any sport. If you want help, you can criticize my idead, not me.


i don’t think you really read what i wrote…

do what you want to, i guess.


why did you post your lifts if you don’t think they’re relevant to the advice you’re asking for?

I’m a high level amateur strongman competitor, and yes I do aspire to turn professional within the next 3 years.

Your lifts are shit, especially at your bodyweight. There’s no way around that. I don’t know why you think otherwise. I’ll talk as much shit as I want to about your strength, because your strength is pathetic. I am WAAAAAY stronger than you at a lower bodyweight. Not only that, but you’re shorter than me, which means you’re carrying A LOT more fat than me. You’re short, fat, and weak, and you’re taking steroids to play a sport you suck at.

You wouldn’t have gotten so upset about what I said if I you didn’t know I was right. Your insecurity is very clear.


oh snap!

Flip’s right though dude. Your cycle is just weird and there’s issues with your diet and training you want to fix before you touch more steroids.


So a stronger guy came and keeps braging abou his status on someone that asked for help.

Good luck on your path.


Just to chime in on the flipcollar v lucas debate:

Being from the United States, it’s easy to be disconnected from the rest of the world’s level of competition in American-rules football. There’s a good article on The MMQB (google “The EuroBowl Faszination” by Jenny Vrentas) that might put this into sharper relief for those of us in the United States. It starts with a story of a 225-pound offensive lineman from Germany who just finished medical school, which means he was playing “professional football” in Europe’s highest division while enrolled in medical school and taking a four-hour train ride to practice twice a week.

This isn’t meant to shit on the guys who suit up and play there - it’s cool that they love the game and go after it for fun - but it’s merely putting things in perspective. Their “professional” league is basically a recreational league; I’m fairly certain that a team composed of starting players from Division 3 schools (non-scholarship, the lowest division of varsity collegiate football, where yours truly toiled for 4 years) in the U.S. would win the EuroBowl without too much trouble.

To wit, Washington & Jefferson (PA) is an above-average Division 3 team (went 8-2 last year, currently sits in the others-receiving-votes section of the preseason Division 3 rankings) and they won an exhibition game in Italy against the Ancona Dolphins - who went 10-0 in the Italian Football League this year and won the IFL’s South Division championship - by the score of 53-15.

OK. That interlude is out of the way now. lucas, that’s not meant to shit on you, merely to put in perspective that you’re playing football in a “professional” league that’s about as competitive as high-school football in the United States. I haven’t played football in nine years, but I would probably be one of the best guys on your team if I walked out there tomorrow - I started most of my collegiate career (29 games) for a team about equal to the aforementioned Washington & Jefferson team who just obliterated one of the best teams in the Italian Football League, and even a couple years removed from that, basically just lifting weights for fun, I’m still bigger and stronger than you are.

So let’s dispense with the notion that you being a “professional” football player is at all relevant in a pissing match between you and flipcollar.

(and yes, I understand that you’ve only been lifting seriously for a year and I’m a hater and all that. I’m just trying to get across that playing “professional” football there is about as relevant as a guy playing basketball in a recreational league here)

And, really, that’s all I have to add. You’ve already gotten good advice from the others who have posted in this thread. Carry on.

No, wait, actually, one more thing.

No, actually, he’s not bragging about his status, he’s trying to convince you that you have a LOT of room for improvement before turning to steroids. Anabolics should be the last piece of the puzzle for someone that’s already got diet and training dialed in with a couple years of solid lifting under their belt, not someone who’s been at it for a year and wants to find a shotrtcut to getting strong.


ActivitiesGuy hit the nail on the head. What I’m suggesting to you is that you are in no position to be using anabolic steroids when it is very clear you do not know how to eat and train. I talked about your chosen sport because I believe you’re using that to justify the steroid use, and I strongly believe that you’re not in a position to do this. I honestly can’t imagine starting steroids at the level you’re at regarding strength and body composition. That’s why it blows me away that you’ve already done multiple cycles, and still aren’t at what I would consider a reasonable starting point.

But on top of all that, you put together one of the worst steroid cycles I’ve seen in my last 3-4 years of posting on this website in this forum. It ABSOLUTELY falls into the top 3 worst cycles I’ve seen, and I have read HUNDREDS of cycle proposals. That’s why you’re getting shit from me. Your lack of knowledge combined with your lack of physical development are strong signs that you should not be using steroids.


flip: not that you’re the ONLY reference point, but what were your numbers when you first made the plunge? I have an idea, just think it might be a useful illustration…certainly there’s no one-size-fits-all-requirement for “this is how strong you should be before you’re allowed to start using anabolics” but it would be a reference point.


oohhh can we start a new thread about this? It’d be a good discussion and a refreshing break from the “how’s my first cycle” threads


Yea, I can share that. I’m 5’10. The highest my bodyweight ever got was right around 190, and I didn’t maintain that for very long naturally. I spent much more time in the 170s and 180s. My best lifts, if I remember correctly, were essentially a 300 lbs bench press, an 400 lbs squat, and a 500 lbs deadlift. I THINK I got to 525 on deadlift, but I’m not positive. 500 is close enough to correct.

  1. 250 mg of sustanon every 10 days will most likely only keep your total testosterone at the high-normal range… most guys need to use 250-300 mg/wk to get above that consistently. the study in the basic cycle thread i posted illustrates this point…

  2. tons of guys have joint/tendon issues with winstrol. the fact that you claim otherwise shows me how little research you’ve done here…

  3. nolva doesn’t work like HCG when you’re on cycle… that theory has been disproven extensively here. and while it might help cholesterol levels, it also reduces IGF-1, which is going to reduce your gains. AND, if you take it for an extended period of time before you start PCT, it’s effectiveness is drastically reduced… again, read the PCT thread and you’ll see the data to how long it works for.

  4. don’t take an androgen in PCT… it’s obviously counterproductive to HPTA recovery.

  5. no, AI’s are NOT useless in PCT… read the PCT thread, where i explain their use and tapering them until the SERM is started.


Hahaha you guys are savage. Guess I was trying to be a little open minded and maybe a little too nice in my first response. I have some thoughts on winstrol that may go against the grain, but I don’t disagree with most of what’s been said here. Savage on.


What are your thoughts on Winstrol? I just started taking it recently for the first time, along with Dbol and a gram of test.


I disagree with the notion that it “causes” ruptured connective tissues, as there is no real evidence of a direct mechanism, but it is very anti-progestagenic and anti-estrogenic, which can both greatly hinder some of the body’s anti-inflammatory processes and increase the risk of injury. Taking a low dose of deca (say 150-200mg/wk) can effectively counteract this as deca and winstrol, with regards to inflammation, work through the same mechanisms but in opposition of each other. Deca aromatizes somewhat and is also a progestin that activates the progesterone receptors. Winny also binds to the progesterone receptors, but does not activate them, which means it effectively blocks them from being activated.

The other aspect of winstrol-induced injury is that it’s very effective for increasing strength, and guys go too heavy too fast on it. I would be wary of increasing the poundages faster than normal, and instead use it to get more reps out of the weight you’re already using. That and pay attention to what your joints are telling you.

So based on those views I don’t think the OP is doing a bad thing at all by combining a low dose of deca with a low dose of winstrol. I think you’ll do fine with dbol, test, and winny, but if it were me I would run my AI at a lower dose than normal while on the winny due to it’s strong anti-estrogenic effects.