T Nation

Potential First Cycle Thoughts?

I debated back and forth about posting this for a while. Ultimately, I decided fuck it. I didn’t want to give people in other forums or the “physique clinic” a false impression of what I was doing in this forum (CrewPierce style). I have an opportunity to train with a coach that reads this site from time to time, and I’m not sure how he’d feel about training me if he knew I went to the dark side.

But there it is–I’m pretty much ready to make the switch. I feel like I’ve put in my time. I’ve trained 7 years, hard as nails, consistently. I’ve put on 80 lbs of muscle in that time. I’ve gone from a 115 lb 1 RM deadlift (yeah, you heard me right) to near 560 lbs.

I’ve put in tens of thousands of meals, thousands of reading hours, lots of books. Basically, I think I’ve paid my dues. Now I’m starting to plan for my first cycle, and need the vets here to help me kick around ideas.

Tell you the truth I’m really thinking out loud with this thread–I think better when writing, and it seems to be the only way I can keep my mind on anything solid these days. I’d appreciate any thoughts.

So here’s what I’m thinking re: AAS first cycle—

Sorry…accidentally submitted last post w/o cycle!

goal–either strength oriented, or cutting/lean mass oriented. I am NOT after lots of mass. I started my V-Diet at 221. I like the idea of basically being at 225 with a six pack. Strength/performance is most important

Idea I kicked around with Bushy via PM, and sent one to Contrl too, was a Tren/Halo two weeker built strictly around super-accumulation strength training.

2 WEEKER TREN/HALO

tren ace 50-75 mg/ED
halo 20-30 mg ED
OPT–HCG via FuriousGeorge’s “Cycle Planning” info on shorty’s
PCT nolva 20 mg ED, 1-2 week via Bushy’s suggestion

Also considered adding anadrol for the strength boosts. Depending on training, looking at an optional extension of this cycle to 4 weeks (2-3 weeks of S-A training, plus staying “on” during the recovery week until Max Test Day and then doing recovery)

Cycle Options–

I’m attracted to the 2-4 weeker because of the quick recovery. I really don’t like the idea of going to crap after 3 months of superhuman feeling like a Test/Tren or other Test based cycle. Also, I’m not sure how I feel about pinning for an extra 8 weeks on Stasis/Taper. Hiding this is an issue–2 roommates, loft apartment, everything’s within easy searching distance. This is another stroke in favor of shortys. Also, good for flash cuts like the V-Diet–Tren is really strong and hence my choice for a shorty.

Those who’ve used Tren–how long/bad was recovery after short bursts (2-4 weeks) and how long/bad was it after longer tren runs?

The big thing with Tren for me is the hair loss. My dad and my grandpa both lost hair, and I don’t want to start down that any sooner than I have to–and propecia etc doesn’t seem to work against tren.

Other ideas I’m kicking around—

8 week cutter—goal would be to lean up fast, then stay lean while gaining back up to 225-230 lbs. Would not want water with this so I’m kicking around ideas for this cycle. Nothing solid yet (sorry guys!!). Suggestions are welcome while I kick around possibilities though.

Considering Equipoise for part of the cutter, winny is an option, but I don’t really know how it would affect my joints and I do lots of heavy singles/triples–don’t need or want any joint problems that I hear about others having while using it. Mast is another option, but again with the extremely tight muscles I’ve heard of…I dunno.

Another possibility–this one is almost directly from FG’s “cycle planning” thread

W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD
W 1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
W 1-9 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 2-8 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid

I like the idea of Tren/Eq, or Test/Tren/winny for cutting/lean mass. Basically, tren seems like my kind of compound, sides notwithstanding.

Any suggestions people? Maybe thoughts on the 2-4 weeker above (main goal strength gain). I know, not a typical 1st cycle–but then my goals aren’t necessarily typical first timer goals (ie–MASS). Not worried about the tren insomnia because I never sleep anyway, so it’s a moot point.

Yeah, I know many people are going to say 12 weeks of 500-600 mg/week test and that’s it. I’m open to that–I don’t want to be a ‘bambeeno’ type blockhead :slight_smile: . But I’m not really sure I want to do that because I’m not sure it best fits my goals (eg–cutting or strength and short duration).

Go read FuriusGeorge’s recent post that got stickied.

especially what he says about tren

Yeah, I’ve read it several times. What are you getting at? The prolactin increase? The libido kill? The fact that it’s generally run at 3/4 or so of the test base and you want me to include a dose of test for the 2 weeker? The idea that its not for a first cycle? (re: the “getswole69” parody post?) --I picked tren because it is known for quick results, and that’s what I’m after in a short cycle, esp re: strength and/or fat loss. Is something wrong with my compound choice based on my time line?

I’d really appreciate some details on what you’re getting at regarding tren. Yes, I’ve already read all the newbie threads a few times.

The feeling I got after talking to Bushy via PM was that the two weeker was an interesting idea. Didn’t seem like he really thought it was a bad idea (many thanks for taking the time to reply to me Bushy!). I’m looking for all the vets’ opinions though, hence why I took the plunge and posted this thread. Also, I’m not stuck on the 2 weeker. I’m not sure which direction I want to go yet, and kind of thinking out loud. Hope that’s ok.

It may be the low carbs (I’m currently on the V-Diet), but I have no idea what you’re trying to tell me.

Hiding a standard length cycle in close proximity to my roommates is going to be near impossible in my particular living arrangements. 8 weeks is about the longest I’m looking for right now, and I’m leaning towards a shorter cycle so I can pull two of them over the summer maybe, without recovery issues.

Ok, so here’s a question for any of the vets who wish to help me out—

what is the combo you’ve found most effective at dropping body fat and hardening up quickly? Also, what are your opinions of halo? (especially looking for Contrl’s inspired advice, since I recall him saying he’d taken it and I don’t remember too many others who’ve been on it)

ALSO–those of you that have had joint issues with Winny–how early in the cycle did they set in?

I personally have never had joint issues arise from winny. Then again, I’m usually running it with anadrol.

Why not try an all injectable 6 week cycle?

Perhaps tren, mast, and prop could be utilized.

Ideally, you could combine the prop and mast in the same injection, whereas tren would have to be shot ED. So one way or another, you’d be injecting ED, but the results would speak for themselves and the pain of injecting will be well worth it when it’s over.

If you like this idea, perhaps I could draw something up for it. And since it’s so short too, you could run 4 weeks of nolva at 25mg ED in conjunction with a month off and I wouldnt be surprised if you were fully recovered by that point in time.

World

Figured I’d check this thread before I crashed out tonight, and boy am I glad I did!

World, that is a great idea! I still don’t know exactly which way I’m going to go, but I DO like your idea and I would seriously consider that. Thanks for the thoughts, and thanks for the op on winny and joints!

2-4 weekers are easy to fly under the radar, which is one reason I considered them–the other rationale being that my super-accumulation phases last only two weeks, plus a week of recovery before Test Day—> 8-10 training sessions a week, with 3 Max effort and 3 DE sessions each week, combined with UBER band and chain tension at least 3x a week takes a heavy heavy toll on me! I figured a 2-3 week Tren stack run would take me through super-compensation and I’d stop injecting after testing my new maxes and go back to “normal” training–quick cycle recovery would be a super plus here. These S-A phases are definitely not a normal training style, just a great plateau buster. But they’ll wear me out for a month or so if I’m not careful, so recovery needs to be fast.

Only question I have is on mast and extremely tight muscles–that could present a problem for me with all the Westside and/or high frequency training I do at 90%+ of my Max. I’m constantly pushing for new PRs. Combine that with some scary strength increases from Tren and Prop (my goal of course) and I’m kinda worried about something going pop. What do you think about that?

Anyone else with thoughts is definitely welcome! I’m open for lots of different things.

PS–my V-Diet log is in Strength Sports, and I started it in the 12% bf range. Don’t have much to really lose–just an experiment I’m running with myself. That being said, my ideal build is around Arnold’s–which would be between 225-235 lean. Feel like I’m there (I hit 238 last semester), just have to clean up my composition the next time I get to that weight–and make my chest and biceps Ah-nuld size :). First priority is strength though.

So let me get this straight. You’ve never done a cycle before and your considering using Tren your 1st cycle, or possibly running tren, mast, and prop? Is that correct?

W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD
W 1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
W 1-9 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 2-8 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid

Before I got to this point in your thread, I was thinking of just this sort of cycle for you. Though I would probably cut that tren short a week early to insure you don’t have any shutdown issues as the test clears. You should be fine, but it would just be a precaution.

I would suggest this many times over your first couple of suggestions, mainly because I think you should go for it (as much as circumstances allow) your first cycle. You know what you are doing so you are in the rare position to truly maximize what you get out of your first cycle.

I certainly hope you’ll keep us updated with a play-by-play. I’ve always appreciated your posts on this board.

Also, this is going to sound weird or gross or both, but I imagine you are going to do your injections in the bathroom, based upon what you’ve said about keeping things hidden? If so, give that sucker a good top to bottom heavy disinfecting. Injecting in a bathroom used by three males consistently is probably one of the least safe places to be doing so, so do whatever you can to reduce the chance of infection.

If you have another place you can inject, then forgive my cluttering up your thread with this strange post :wink:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD
W 1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
W 1-9 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 2-8 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid

Before I got to this point in your thread, I was thinking of just this sort of cycle for you. Though I would probably cut that tren short a week early to insure you don’t have any shutdown issues as the test clears. You should be fine, but it would just be a precaution.

I would suggest this many times over your first couple of suggestions, mainly because I think you should go for it (as much as circumstances allow) your first cycle. You know what you are doing so you are in the rare position to truly maximize what you get out of your first cycle.

I certainly hope you’ll keep us updated with a play-by-play. I’ve always appreciated your posts on this board. [/quote]

Thanks Cortes, that means a lot to me. I try to be as helpful as I can most of the time (though on rare occasions I sometimes let the smoke out of my brain). That’s a very good point on letting the tren go a week early. I’ll definitely keep everyone updated when I start it, although I’m not sure about keeping a full-on daily log. But who knows, it could be a good thing as well for tracking my diet and training then.

I’d really like to see what World comes up with regarding his idea as well. What do you think about the prop/tren/mast?

I’ve tried to maximize my natural training in any way I could. I still really don’t feel like I’ve reached my genetic limit. Feel like I could easily hold 240-250 naturally. I know I could reach upwards of raw 700 squat and deadlift naturally too. I just have to confess to myself that I’m getting impatient, and that I just finally want to accelerate things faster than they’ve been crawling along. A lot faster. It’s an interesting feeling where I’m at.

I never really had any personal qualms about using AAS, but it kinda sucks to know that I’ll be stigmatized by society now and that as far as “They” are concerned the last 7 years of training, eating, and learning mean officially nothing when I take that first shot (not that they have to know, of course). So going from 115 to 560 means nothing as soon as that pin hits me. Just interesting place to be.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Also, this is going to sound weird or gross or both, but I imagine you are going to do your injections in the bathroom, based upon what you’ve said about keeping things hidden? If so, give that sucker a good top to bottom heavy disinfecting. Injecting in a bathroom used by three males consistently is probably one of the least safe places to be doing so, so do whatever you can to reduce the chance of infection.

If you have another place you can inject, then forgive my cluttering up your thread with this strange post ;)[/quote]

Actually no that’s a great point. Precisely the kind of thing I would overlook. Although my bathroom is al to myself since we have two–there have been many parties thrown at this abode however…

The people who don’t count already think you’re doing steroids anyway, and the people who do, well, they probably won’t give you more than a wink and a nod. If you don’t tell, then it really doesn’t matter, I think.

I also think prop/tren/mast would be fantastic. Actually, I was personally going to do prop/tren/eq this time around because RJ has said great things about it, I just didn’t have anymore money for eq. Perhaps on the next one. Strength, size and vascularity, talk about feeling superhuman.

Cortes,

Yeah, my first couple cycle thoughts were built around short bursts of extremely intense training. No way my joints or tendons could handle more than 2 weeks of that insanity, juiced or not. I’ve had great success with my two week S-A phases in the past couple years, and I figured I could combine quick recovery shorty’s with my two weeks of hell to really put on some strength.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
The people who don’t count already think you’re doing steroids anyway, and the people who do, well, they probably won’t give you more than a wink and a nod. If you don’t tell, then it really doesn’t matter, I think.

I also think prop/tren/mast would be fantastic. Actually, I was personally going to do prop/tren/eq this time around because RJ has said great things about it, I just didn’t have anymore money for eq. Perhaps on the next one. Strength, size and vascularity, talk about feeling superhuman.
[/quote]

You are totally correct, as always. I’ve already heard people say things about me while I’m in the gym. I’m not big at all mind you, but whatever.

Yeah I’m looking forward to this. It will be a challenge with nutrition though–since this is now undetermined territory as far as cutting and putting on lean mass. I have a tendency to believe there is a best way to do most things, or a ‘right’ way…never mind that I know better. Always searching for optimization.

I’m curious about the combos for this type of cycle…I’d already mentioned thinking about eq as well. Since I’m the n00b, what are some of the ‘feel effects’ or differences in mast vs eq for cutting in this type of combo?

Also I’m curious about the muscle tightness associated with mast…and a PLers habit of doing heavy singles/triples/PR attempts regularly. Like I mentioned to World, the cycle sounds great–except I’m worried about something going pop under big weights (maybe baselessly worried)

Question–

Total n00b question, but I gotta ask–when going for lean mass gains, or lets say when prepping for a photo op (low bf% but also gain some mass), what are the ballpark figures on lean mass to shoot for?

Everyone’s different, fine, but let’s talk about the tren/prop, or test/tren/mast or test/tren/eq cycles in an 8 week range–how much could I reasonably expect to gain? I want to make sure I make the most of my first cycle, so a ballpark figure would be appreciated, disclaimers aside.

Another Question–

nutrition–those using cutters or lean mass phases, how do you guys run carbs? I’m considering running a low/moderate carb approach. Of course, since I’ve never been on vitamin T before, I dunno how typical nutrition will change when I’m using (aside from better partitioning). I don’t know if I should consider changing nutrition strategies… I know some ppl recommend tons of carbs for all out mass cycles, but obviously this is not that kind of cycle.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Cortes wrote:
The people who don’t count already think you’re doing steroids anyway, and the people who do, well, they probably won’t give you more than a wink and a nod. If you don’t tell, then it really doesn’t matter, I think.

I also think prop/tren/mast would be fantastic. Actually, I was personally going to do prop/tren/eq this time around because RJ has said great things about it, I just didn’t have anymore money for eq. Perhaps on the next one. Strength, size and vascularity, talk about feeling superhuman.

You are totally correct, as always. I’ve already heard people say things about me while I’m in the gym. I’m not big at all mind you, but whatever.

Yeah I’m looking forward to this. It will be a challenge with nutrition though–since this is now undetermined territory as far as cutting and putting on lean mass. I have a tendency to believe there is a best way to do most things, or a ‘right’ way…never mind that I know better. Always searching for optimization.

I’m curious about the combos for this type of cycle…I’d already mentioned thinking about eq as well. Since I’m the n00b, what are some of the ‘feel effects’ or differences in mast vs eq for cutting in this type of combo?

Also I’m curious about the muscle tightness associated with mast…and a PLers habit of doing heavy singles/triples/PR attempts regularly. Like I mentioned to World, the cycle sounds great–except I’m worried about something going pop under big weights (maybe baselessly worried)[/quote]

I don’t think you’ll have a problem with muscle tightness from mast as long as you keep under 250-300/week. I have heard that figure from a few experienced guys. Over 300/350 a week and watch out. Other wise it should be fine. Eq is going to most likely increase your appetite and you’re cutting, so that depends on your willpower there. I was thinking eq also, but said screw it for this very reason.

Mast is great but a different beast compared to tren from what I’ve heard. They seem to work in different ways, where as you have said, the mast really tightens and dries one up, and you have to be careful to not do too much for reasons stated, whereas the tren is almost magical in it’s actions that affect fat loss, seemingly helps to just “melt” it off nicely, but without the same hardening and “drying” out effect of mast. Though it definitely will harden you up and increase vascularity greatly from what I’ve heard again.
Obviously though, diet will be a HUGE part of the success of anything you run bud.

               I would say t/tr/mast would be fantastic, just keep the mast down a bit lower. Otherwise just the two would/should kick ass t/tr. 

                 good luck Aragorn.

bro i have to tell you, you have been ill advised. 500mg of a long acting test for 10 weeks is sufficient for any goals you wish to reach. contrary to popular belief you can easily cut on test alone and have it show. proper diet management will allow you to handle that as well as bloat if you keep your sodium in line. you wanna remain dry while using test… add 50mg of proviron ED. the cycles you are proposing are borderline absurd for a first cycle. 100x overkill. and its not only the particular drugs you are planning on… its the cycle length. now you are talkign about EQ… you wont start seeing the true benefits of EQ for a good 8-10 weeks… most people i know run it for at least 14.

those 2 and 4 week burst cycles you were talking about… nonsense my friend. i truely wish you the best here and that is why i am voicing my opinion. but i think you are absorbing a little too much “broscience” when it comes to cycling.

[quote]InTheZone wrote:

I don’t think you’ll have a problem with muscle tightness from mast as long as you keep under 250-300/week. I have heard that figure from a few experienced guys. Over 300/350 a week and watch out. Other wise it should be fine. Eq is going to most likely increase your appetite and you’re cutting, so that depends on your willpower there. I was thinking eq also, but said screw it for this very reason.

Mast is great but a different beast compared to tren from what I’ve heard. They seem to work in different ways, where as you have said, the mast really tightens and dries one up, and you have to be careful to not do too much for reasons stated, whereas the tren is almost magical in it’s actions that affect fat loss, seemingly helps to just “melt” it off nicely, but without the same hardening and “drying” out effect of mast. Though it definitely will harden you up and increase vascularity greatly from what I’ve heard again.
Obviously though, diet will be a HUGE part of the success of anything you run bud.

I would say t/tr/mast would be fantastic, just keep the mast down a bit lower. Otherwise just the two would/should kick ass t/tr.

                 good luck Aragorn.[/quote]

Thanks man, I appreciate it. Good info on mast–I didn’t know that. I’m a bit nervous about the mast even though my goal by the end of the cycle is to have a dry photo-ready physique. I’ve heard great things about it from tons of people–vets here and elsewhere. I just know that I train extremely intensely as a powerlifter and I would not be changing my training style much, except to add some beach work. I’ve not suffered a major injury yet (tendonitis aside) and I wouldn’t want a great first cycle to give me my first :).

And yes, diet will be tight–I’m just not sure what should change to take best advantage of the juice yet, if anything. I’m not going “no carb” because I want to be able to perform well. But finding the balance to dry up and lean out while gaining muscle will be hard for me. Well, maybe–it might just happen automatically with an enhanced training regimen and regular every day “clean” diet. I’m inexperienced so what do I know?

I need to do more research on masteron–anyone know if it would be worthwhile to just kick the mast in for the last 3-4 weeks of the cycle? So I could dry up but also take a planned down cycle from my typical PL training. Or does mast need longer than that do really be noticeable?

[quote]SMASHING MACHINE wrote:
bro i have to tell you, you have been ill advised. 500mg of a long acting test for 10 weeks is sufficient for any goals you wish to reach. contrary to popular belief you can easily cut on test alone and have it show. proper diet management will allow you to handle that as well as bloat if you keep your sodium in line. you wanna remain dry while using test… add 50mg of proviron ED. the cycles you are proposing are borderline absurd for a first cycle. 100x overkill. and its not only the particular drugs you are planning on… its the cycle length. now you are talkign about EQ… you wont start seeing the true benefits of EQ for a good 8-10 weeks… most people i know run it for at least 14. those 2 and 4 week burst cycles you were talking about… nonsense my friend. i truely wish you the best here and that is why i am voicing my opinion. but i think you are absorbing a little too much “broscience” when it comes to cycling.[/quote]

I appreciate the thoughts a lot man. I hope not to offend you with this next statement, but I’ve ‘known’ Cortes’ and Tone’s and World’s advice to be dead on, and I’ve had a lot of time to read their posts because they’ve been on the site for a lot longer than a couple weeks. Not to take anything away from what you said though, as I believe you fully, and you seem nice. Just saying they’re known quantities and they’ve always had good advice for people before.

Anyway, I appreciate your advice and it makes sense as well. I’ll consider it for sure. I did have a brief idea of taking proviron in a test based cycle so its interesting to hear you say that. I’m totally in the dark about EQ’s timeline for effects, so that’s why I was asking about that above. But remember my original 2-4 week cycle ideas were for Strength Only, not size. And I know tren and halo work really well for that, really fast.

I guess the other thing is I want to be recovered fully by the beginning of school in late August, so a 10 week long estered test cycle might not really be the ticket. Only 2 weeks to recover from that if I started it right at the beginning of the summer. I don’t want to be crashed when everybody gets back. I’m going to be training with a highly respected coach for a bit in late August or early Sept. as well, so I want to be 100% recovered when I hit that time. Also the hiding will be easier the shorter the cycle is–8 weeks is about the longest I would consider running any cycle for now. I live with 2 roommates in a 2 bedroom loft apartment, so someone is always around. No house with private quarters.