T Nation

Post workout supp

Ok T-men, we have the ingridents for the new post-workout supp in this weeks issue. So let’s do some experimenting and post what concocitions we come up and the results. BTW where do you get this kind of protein??

protein factory, they have all the ingredients. The down fall is that their BCAA’s ie. l-leucine, l-isoleucine and l-valine aren’t custimizable. This may or may not be a problem, but like Tim said he wasn’t giving out one of the key ratios…

Go with these ratios: 50% maltodextrin and 50% glucose for the carbohydrate mix; 3-5 grams of BCAA from Proteinfactory, 3-5 grams of glutamine/glutamine peptides from Proteinfactory, and the recommended formula for the Whey Protein Hydrolysate. This should do the trick.

Okay, I knew about the Hydro 520 and the maltodextrin from the Protein Factory, but where can I buy the pure glucose??? I REALLY want to give this a try!

you think 3-5 grams is enough for the glutamine and the BCAA’s, being that its always been recommended to use far higher ammounts. of course that didnt have the rest of the cocktail so i suppose a little overkill was necessary to get the job done.

my thoughts exactly except i would get L-glutamine from labrada or Ast because it is a bit cheaper than at Protein Factory… I would probably try chocalate flavored hydrosolate from Protein Factory (with sucralose) and maybe dump a shitload more of chocalate milk mix in the shake … 'cause hydrosolate (from kaizen i bought a long while ago) makes me gag lol… You guys got any tips on masking the taste - tim P said his prototype didnt taste bad.

You can order custom amounts of amino acids from a place called Jo Mar Labs. Do a web search on it and you can find the place.

As for the protein, you can get it at the aforementioned protein factory (again, do the web search). They offer two variations of the Whey Protein Hydrosalate (sp?).

The key to the equation, however, is the taste.
The article stated that they have somehow come up with a way to make this concotion taste good. Given the ingredients, this is a major accomplishment!

Screw all that. I’m just going to use whatever Biotest comes out with. I’m sure it’ll taste good and they’ll get the ingredients done perfectly.

Would a distant post-workout drink to this new formula be combining Cytomax, ProScore, and Glutacene (doubt using all of this would make you pass out, though)? Cytomax has a pretty top GI, ProScore contains whey protein hydrolysate but I’m not sure how much, and Eric Serrano says he uses the Glutacene BCAA ratios to treat hospital patients.

I have found mixing whey protein with 2-3 servings of cytomax, creatine and glutamine to work best for me and cost effective.

Where can one get the glucose necessary for the drink? I’m going to try this soon, probably after reading John Berardi’s follow up article next week. I also feel more protein should be used, since i’d need 40g w/ the formula provided my other meals actually need more, which seems odd. I’d think post-workout the most protein would be needed. I think the ratio in Glutacene that Fulton mentioned is a good idea, I know Dr Serrano has done a great deal of experimenting w/ BCAA’s post-workout. Dman, i’d ditch the chocolate milk b/c Tim Patterson made it pretty clear to be exact about what’s added to the shake or the effects will be less than optimal. Interested if this could be used during fat loss. Following a Zone-type diet now, perhaps this shake post-workout and all other meals w/ Zone ratios, as to lose fat w/out muscle loss and possibly even a subsequent gain in muscle.

A few comments regarding the taste. The Protein Factory recommends using 25% or less of Hydro 520, in order to be able to drink it. Now follow me on these numbers: protein need (according to Tim’s Formula) = 35g, carb need = 70g. Tim is experiencing drug-like reactions, I think, from the amount of additional amino acids Tim listed (so there must be a LOT). It would be extremely safe to say that 10 grams of glutamine ALONE could be added to this formula, and that is before the other BCAA. So, let’s say another 10 grams for the remaining 3 BCAA (leucine, isoleucine, valine). This gives us 35g+70g+10g+10g=125 grams of product. Add in 10 grams of cocoa for flavoring (representative of Protein Factory ratio for flavoring), and our total is 135. What percentage Hydro520 (hydrolyzed whey) do we now have? 35/135 = 25.9%, which is close enough to the 25% for the taste recommendations.

Hehehe…then again, I’ve been known to be wrong every now and then. =)

Where do I get a good set of scales to measure exact amounts of all the ingredients?

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to stop in for a quick “visit” and to add a couple of things regarding this new formula. The most interesting (and amazing) thing is that it is virtually unnecessary to jack up the protein any further or take huge doses of the BCAA or aminos. It seems to be the ratios that causes the “drug-like effects” (although I hate to use that phrase because it’s been cliched to death). In one research paper a combination of 35g of carbs and only 6 g of essential amino acids (not even complete protein) seemed to have some pretty profound effects on recovery. Now, this wasnt done in very well trained individuals so serious athletes/trainees will need more of each. But the 0.8carb and 0.4protein per kg is it. Of course you can take more, but it isnt necessary.

Ive written several (at least 5) articles about postworkout nutrition and supplementation for t-mag and these articles will be coming out over the next few weeks. In one I even address how to make your own concoxion (again, however, leaving out the ratios as per Tim's recommendations). I had been using a little blend of my own with these ingredients but Ill tell you what. When we got the final prototype right and I tasted it, I just stood there with a stupid grin on my face because I was so into the taste. At that moment I decided to never...ever...whip up my own blend again (my own just tasted BAD and no matter how much I tried to sweeten it...it still made my face scrunch up and want to spit it back out). The key to taste is to use flavors that mask the bitterness of the protein and BCAA. There are certain flavors that mask and others dont. And it has nothing to do with strength of masking agent or the "flavor" in general. Some chocolates will mask others wont based on the chemical interactions of the molecules. It has to do with the interaction between the bad taste and the good to produce a good taste.

Also about the "drug-like effects" although the formula is 100% macronutrient based (protein, carbs, aminos), the ratios are critical. One thing I wont discuss much is glucagon but what this does is antagonize insulin. Just enough protein and aminos added to carbs will dramatically increase insulin release (like to the tune of several hundred percent more - Ill post the graphs from the lab within the next few weeks). But too much protein or aminos will act to increase glucagon and actually antagonize insulin. So you need just enough but not too much. My advice - dont take the typical bodybuilding approach that more is better. In this case more is wasteful and actually the opposite of better.

Oh yeah, and finally, flex suggested that this could be used during dieting and I fully agree. If you are eating well the rest of the day and throw this in right after the workout, you wont be inhibiting any fat burning processes (for those who want to argue that point, I suggest you wait till my 3rd article comes out to see what the science says) and will definately be helping preserve muscle mass.

The glucose, AKA dextrose, can be purchased online. A friend of mine purchased some after nearly going into hypoglycemic shock, after an insulin injection. When he felt his blood glucose was too low(feeling dizzy, ready to pass out), he’d go slam some. One wild and crazy guy! :slight_smile: While I can’t say for sure, I think he told me he purchased it from one of those micro brewery supply stores. I think the smallest was around 5 pounds though. Hope this helps.

If you want pure glucose go to a health food store or the protein factory and buy dextrose. It has the same atomic makeup but is the mirror image of glucose. It’ll do the job for you.

Wassup, T-Men! This is actually pretty fun…trying to figure this lil’ puzzle out. It’s as exciting as hell to me anyway…anabolism all day long, baby. Anyway, I digress. A few thoughts and questions…
Paul’s right on…Biotest is going to do this thing and do it right. But until then, I wouldn’t mind tooling around with the cocktail. I’m not planning on shelling out any cash just yet, I’m with Flex in waiting for the Dr. Berardi’s follow-up.
Okay, I’ve done a little researching on the BCAAs and Glutamine, and as was aforementioned, Dr. Serrano has been on top of these two particular products, and we know he’s on top of the nutrition game. He recommends .17g/kg of Glutamine before and after training (200 pounder uses about 15.5g before and after). He recommends using between .35 and .45g/kg of BCAAs divided before and after training. So, again we’re looking at about .17 to .22g/kg after training (15.5g to 20g added to our cocktail). As far as brands, Dr. Serrano mentions a company called Carson Labs, but I think as long as you’re getting it in powdered form, Protein Factory is good-to-go. As far as Glutamine, Dr. Serrano mentions Champion, Beverly Int. and Wieder.
As far as carbs go, I had a few questions. What do you guys think about using Cytomax–a blend of amylopectin starches and maltodextrin? Also, what about straight up glucose? As far as the hydrosolate protein, I think Protein Factory is our go-to-guy, but I am also wondering whether AST’s VP2 Hydrolyzed Protein will work. As far as flavoring, nix the milk…Timmy P said nothing but 16oz of water. The cocoa might work…I don’t know, fellas, this all really getting me pumped!

flex69- i was saying add mix in but never said the milk… 2 more things… the breakdown of Hydro250 is 75% protein so you would probably need even more of that shit in there than your standard 35grams for a 200lber (35*4/3= 47grams) right? now correct me if i am wrong but isnt Dextrose is the outside of your blood
equivalent of glucose?

Hey if anyone is trying to find where to get pure glucose you can find it at any supermarket or pharmacy, it should come in tablets or in a white crystal powder. Its usually used by people with diabetes so you shouldn’t have a hard time finding it. And regarding taste this is probably what keeps you from gagging on the whey hydro, because this stuff is almost as sweet as sugar, and maltodextrin should even it out a bit too, since its slightly sweet. I read somewhere that Dextros is the same thing as pure glucose but just to be sure check the labels on anything with pure dextros to be sure its the same thing. This is why Tim warned against anyone with blood sugar problems taking this stuff, and probably why you get a really good high off of it.

Hey guys … thanks for all the great info so far. Great info on the protien factory. For glucose and maltodextrin try a beer making supply store. I know they carry maltodextrin and I’ve heard glucose also referred to as “rice syrup”, “corn syrup” and “corn sugar”, (although I could be wrong). Something else to keep in mind, (again I could be wrong) I believe it is half as sweet as table sugar. You can also try a candy supply store. The nice thing about these stores is they also carry flavoring and flavoring agents. Ask some one who works there what flavorings best mask bitterness. I’m going to bring in the “ingredients” and see what they say. Were getting close!!