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Post Workout Shake/Carbs

hi im new to this forum and fairly new to bodybuilding. ive been training around 3 years but got into it seriously a few months ago. i want to know if my post workout shake is enough to spike insulin levels along with a banana. im using phd pharma gain it has 35g protein and 40g carbs in 3 scoops. i take that along with a banana.Im looking to gain lean muscle and minimal fat. Should i be having something instead of the banana that has a higher GI?

Im 185 lbs, 5ft 9inches and 13% bodyfat if that helps . .

[quote]travblades1889 wrote:
hi im new to this forum and fairly new to bodybuilding. ive been training around 3 years but got into it seriously a few months ago. i want to know if my post workout shake is enough to spike insulin levels along with a banana. im using phd pharma gain it has 35g protein and 40g carbs in 3 scoops. i take that along with a banana.Im looking to gain lean muscle and minimal fat. Should i be having something instead of the banana that has a higher GI?

Im 185 lbs, 5ft 9inches and 13% bodyfat if that helps . .[/quote]

I have been reading lately that some people I consider to be knowledgeable are advocating having no carbs post workout.

This is not how I’ve done things but I may experiment with it later on in the future.

Basically the idea is to eat lean meat the day up until you start approaching your workout. Then you smash carbs within the 3ish hours pre workout, and even dirty things like candy bars have even been reccommended. then to have no carbs the hours following post workout.

Basically this would be pure protein in the form of a shake post workout then an hour later another protein shake then lean meats the rest of the day.

the whole idea is to stay lean while gaining.

I dunno if it really works though.

Btw. I like to keep my starchy carbs around workouts. I feel this has helped a lot recently.

For instance my preworkout meal/first meal of the day would be:

50g of whey isolate and 1 cup of white rice (50g carbs)

My post workout meal would be 25g of whey isolate, 3oz of chicken breast, 1 cup of white rice, 2 oz of broccoli, 1 tsp of coconut oil, kimchi

the rest of the day I have fruit and veggies as my only carbs with meat and or eggs and coconut oil

until dinner which would be 4oz of sweet potato with cinnamon and butter from grassfed milk, 2oz of broccoli, 8oz of salmon, kimchi. (Sometimes this meal is after cardio.)

When I started training, and even during my very first contest prep, I was a big fan of the post workout carbs+protein combo. I honestly feel that it’s a very good approach to basic bodybuilding/performance training nutrition and recovery.

Eventually, I began experimenting with putting more and more of my daily carbs to the feedings before my training. This also coincided with focusing on an intelligent influx of nutrients during my actual training. To me, this negated the obsessive need to race home and replenish depleted glycogen stores. It also allowed me to feel much better (mental focus, strength etc) during my actual training session.

Now, whether the carbs ingested before hitting the weights are fully digested in time to have any direct effect on your workout is open to debate (amount, type, hormonal spikes, etc), but to me I felt that I got much more out of this approach. I can also fairly objectively point to the fact that my stage weight continued to increase each year, as I was able to hold onto a greater amount of LBM during periods of extreme cutting.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
When I started training, and even during my very first contest prep, I was a big fan of the post workout carbs+protein combo. I honestly feel that it’s a very good approach to basic bodybuilding/performance training nutrition and recovery.

Eventually, I began experimenting with putting more and more of my daily carbs to the feedings before my training. This also coincided with focusing on an intelligent influx of nutrients during my actual training. To me, this negated the obsessive need to race home and replenish depleted glycogen stores. It also allowed me to feel much better (mental focus, strength etc) during my actual training session.

Now, whether the carbs ingested before hitting the weights are fully digested in time to have any direct effect on your workout is open to debate (amount, type, hormonal spikes, etc), but to me I felt that I got much more out of this approach. I can also fairly objectively point to the fact that my stage weight continued to increase each year, as I was able to hold onto a greater amount of LBM during periods of extreme cutting.

S[/quote]

Can you talk more about this?

maybe drop some numbers down? I know you have said you pay much less attention to how much you eat and estimate with your eyes rather than weight.

But what is your carbohydrate intake like around/during workouts?

Do you eat anything post workout, like just protein?

Do you refrain from carbohydrates at the other times of the day other than pre and intra workout?

If not, and you had to, how much of your carb intake do you consume during that preworkout/intraworkout window, 30%, 50% 80%?

Ingesting carbs and protein decreases the absorption rate of amino acids (Mariotti et al. 2000)
so only consume protein and not carbs right after a workout.

(From pg. 100 of Serious Strength Training 2nd edition by Bompa, Pasquale and Cornacchia.)

I read this a while ago and glanced back at the book after reading this thread.

I never really looked into it by reading the study or anything but have been following
the approach of protein only right after.(cuz it kind of made sense to me we’re lifting weights not running a a marathon i would imagine replenishing glycogen stores not being a severe issue)

I’ve also been doing the lots of carbs preworkout. I’ve experimented and felt the best during the entire training session when eating wheat thins about an hour pre.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
When I started training, and even during my very first contest prep, I was a big fan of the post workout carbs+protein combo. I honestly feel that it’s a very good approach to basic bodybuilding/performance training nutrition and recovery.

Eventually, I began experimenting with putting more and more of my daily carbs to the feedings before my training. This also coincided with focusing on an intelligent influx of nutrients during my actual training. To me, this negated the obsessive need to race home and replenish depleted glycogen stores. It also allowed me to feel much better (mental focus, strength etc) during my actual training session.

Now, whether the carbs ingested before hitting the weights are fully digested in time to have any direct effect on your workout is open to debate (amount, type, hormonal spikes, etc), but to me I felt that I got much more out of this approach. I can also fairly objectively point to the fact that my stage weight continued to increase each year, as I was able to hold onto a greater amount of LBM during periods of extreme cutting.

S[/quote]

Can you talk more about this?

maybe drop some numbers down? I know you have said you pay much less attention to how much you eat and estimate with your eyes rather than weight.

But what is your carbohydrate intake like around/during workouts?

Do you eat anything post workout, like just protein?

Do you refrain from carbohydrates at the other times of the day other than pre and intra workout?

If not, and you had to, how much of your carb intake do you consume during that preworkout/intraworkout window, 30%, 50% 80%?
[/quote]

The whole rationalization behind the post exercise feeding is to replenish nutrients at an accelerated rate, in anticipation of your next gym session. Obviously I’m sure the post training influx of nutrients is a nice little kick start to the recovery process as well.

With the focus on pre, as well as during nutrition, the point of such dramatic depletion is never truly reached. As such, you shift your focus on providing nutrients during the performance rather than afterward. One thing that has always stayed with me, was a piece spoken by the teacher in an old Intro to Sports Medicine Class I took waaaaaaaaaaay back in the late 80’s. He said that feeding your body nutrients while in the midst of training or playing is akin to tossing another log into a furnace. It’ll keep things burning a full blast.
(I’ll write more later, but I gotta run out!)

S

With the exception of pre/post workout I usually run a no-starch routine. I count 100% of all carbohydrates and my daily total is 175g [35g is fiber & 65g is sugar]. I take 15g of powdered gatorade with the pre-workout shake and there is 40g of waxy maize in the post workout shake. Pre & post is about 30% of the daily total. I re-feed 1-2 meals each week; similar to Kiefer’s ‘carb-night’ protocol.

When leanness is the priority I will reduce/eliminate the post work waxy maize folowing some workouts and limit the re-feed to one meal period.

I have never had much luck during the training, I seem to get nauseous more often than not.

I thought PWO carbs were more to shut down muscle catabolism as quickly as possible and not necessarily to hit a “goldylocks” glycogen refill window.

I’ve found that on the whole worry about excessive muscle catabolism is exaggerated at best. I’ve known too many top competitors who don’t even bother eating after training, yet still stand onstage with enough lean muscle mass to shock even the most diet-hard ‘I learned everything I need to know from 6 page ad-reports’-gym rat.

Dr Joe Klemszewski (who I respect quite a bit), always said that if muscle growth is your primary goal, then you should definitely take advantage of the post training period and get some carbs in. However, if your working more towards cutting, or even a smart recomp, it’s perfectly okay to not have any carbs post workout whatsoever.

My little addition to this is that by seriously addressing the pre-and during windows, you’re really covering your bases in terms of preventing unnecessary muscle loss. Anytime you can prevent steps backwards, it adds up towards your steps forward.


@PAUL: My usual approach is to focus the majority of my carb intake to my morning meals, and preworkout. This is during the workweek of course, when my training is always going to be in the evening. The rest of my meals are typically P+F+Veggies.

As far as how much, well, my intake during a prep can fluctuate from as little as <100g on just cardio days (NEVER at the onset though, but towards the end, we need to buckle down a bit and really hover close to the empty/slightly full level on the stored glycogen gauge), to as much as 350-400g on my higher intake days. The problem comes when you have to address just how you’re going to get all of those carbs in. That’s why if you read my last few prep threads, you’ll see me downing 3 finibars, and sometimes even throwing in a scoop or two of SWF right before training, EVEN ON LOW DAYS! Yes I know these carbs aren’t instantly available for energy, but I’ll be damned if I don’t have some serious kickass training sessions.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve found that on the whole worry about excessive muscle catabolism is exaggerated at best. I’ve known too many top competitors who don’t even bother eating after training, yet still stand onstage with enough lean muscle mass to shock even the most diet-hard ‘I learned everything I need to know from 6 page ad-reports’-gym rat.

Dr Joe Klemszewski (who I respect quite a bit), always said that if muscle growth is your primary goal, then you should definitely take advantage of the post training period and get some carbs in. However, if your working more towards cutting, or even a smart recomp, it’s perfectly okay to not have any carbs post workout whatsoever.

My little addition to this is that by seriously addressing the pre-and during windows, you’re really covering your bases in terms of preventing unnecessary muscle loss. Anytime you can prevent steps backwards, it adds up towards your steps forward.


@PAUL: My usual approach is to focus the majority of my carb intake to my morning meals, and preworkout. This is during the workweek of course, when my training is always going to be in the evening. The rest of my meals are typically P+F+Veggies.

As far as how much, well, my intake during a prep can fluctuate from as little as <100g on just cardio days (NEVER at the onset though, but towards the end, we need to buckle down a bit and really hover close to the empty/slightly full level on the stored glycogen gauge), to as much as 350-400g on my higher intake days. The problem comes when you have to address just how you’re going to get all of those carbs in. That’s why if you read my last few prep threads, you’ll see me downing 3 finibars, and sometimes even throwing in a scoop or two of SWF right before training, EVEN ON LOW DAYS! Yes I know these carbs aren’t instantly available for energy, but I’ll be damned if I don’t have some serious kickass training sessions.

S[/quote]

I’m actually so intrigued by this. Especially since the whole carb backloading and IF thing exploded last year.

I’m going to play around with this. Sigh, the bad thing about me is I usually workout in the morning. Sometimes within less than an hour of waking up. So I guess I’m going to start with half of my daily intake pre workout (100g) and no carbs on my immediate meal post workout and see how I feel over the next few weeks. Although i’ll probably have carbs at my other meals since I’ll still have about 100g to consume and distribute over a few meals.

As I’ve gotten leaner I’ve been experimenting with moving my carbs around for workouts (largely because of drastically reducing them in my overall diet). The best I’ve come up with so far is only trace carbs throughout the day with lots of fat and moderate protein, some casein hydro before, a few grams of carbs with electrolytes during, bunch of CH just after, and then a meal with lots of fat, a ton of protein, a few carbs (generally a couple pieces of fruit, I eat no starches) 45 minutes or so post training.

I have a ton of energy, feel amazing, and recover great. And that’s on 50-75 grams of carbs a day and even fewer on rest days, though I don’t have many of those because I have an uncontrollable urge to train basically every day.

I honestly don’t think carbs are all that necessary, at least for some people. I still eat a lot of calories, and it took a couple weeks to get passed the brain fog, but I’ve never felt better. I don’t know if you can re-program your body to run on fat, or if there are genetic differences that naturally make my body run better that way, but it works for me. Some of the information I’ve been researching leads me to believe that might be true.

Maybe I’m descended from the people of a colder climate that lived mostly on meat or something, I don’t know. But if you think about it, 99.9% of the evolution of man, there would have been no grains and large sections of the year (or even full years) without much in the way of plants to eat.

My opinion for what it’s worth, I don’t have a pro card like some posters in the thread. hah.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
As I’ve gotten leaner I’ve been experimenting with moving my carbs around for workouts (largely because of drastically reducing them in my overall diet). The best I’ve come up with so far is only trace carbs throughout the day with lots of fat and moderate protein, some casein hydro before, a few grams of carbs with electrolytes during, bunch of CH just after, and then a meal with lots of fat, a ton of protein, a few carbs (generally a couple pieces of fruit, I eat no starches) 45 minutes or so post training.

I have a ton of energy, feel amazing, and recover great. And that’s on 50-75 grams of carbs a day and even fewer on rest days, though I don’t have many of those because I have an uncontrollable urge to train basically every day.

I honestly don’t think carbs are all that necessary, at least for some people. I still eat a lot of calories, and it took a couple weeks to get passed the brain fog, but I’ve never felt better. I don’t know if you can re-program your body to run on fat, or if there are genetic differences that naturally make my body run better that way, but it works for me. Some of the information I’ve been researching leads me to believe that might be true.

Maybe I’m descended from the people of a colder climate that lived mostly on meat or something, I don’t know. But if you think about it, 99.9% of the evolution of man, there would have been no grains and large sections of the year (or even full years) without much in the way of plants to eat.

My opinion for what it’s worth, I don’t have a pro card like some posters in the thread. hah.[/quote]

Same experience. my digestive system works about 100x better and I have little to no acne after going low carb. I will still sometimes eat gluten on refeeds that I have once a week or once every other week depending on feel. Even with injuries I shed a lot of fat and kept a decent amount of muscle. I also feel better in general.

I have largely northern Europe flowing through my veins as well. I bacically eat meat, eggs, and veggies with controlled amounts of dairy and nuts. I tend to go buck wild on my refeeds though.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I honestly don’t think carbs are all that necessary, at least for some people. I still eat a lot of calories, and it took a couple weeks to get passed the brain fog, but I’ve never felt better. I don’t know if you can re-program your body to run on fat, or if there are genetic differences that naturally make my body run better that way, but it works for me. Some of the information I’ve been researching leads me to believe that might be true. hah.[/quote]

funny you say this. I am recently coming off a cut for several months where I ate very little carbs. I’m now trying to gain, and have been eating more carbs. I’ve been feeling a lot more sluggish and feel likei have less energy. Workouts have been pretty consistent. I think Im Gonna go back to the low carb. I felt much better.

Wish someone would write more on this subject.

I haven’t had any post w/o carbs for the past 4 weeks after reading some forum posts recently. I used to always have a recovery drink immediately following training. Now, on my high carb days I get a most of my carbs from food during my first two meals of the day, lunch is protein, fat and veggies, then based on Stu’s recommendation adding a Finibar or two before I put my drink together to get the rest of my carbs in, then 2 scoops SWF/1 scoop MAG-10, which I start drinking about 15 min before training, and finish off on my last set. Then a MAG-10 pulse 45-60 min later, HSM 30 min after that.

I LOVE adding a Finibar before my session (THANKS STU!!!), and I haven’t felt the need for post w/o carbs since I stopped using them. On low carb days, I have a little fruit in the morning, then all veggies until training, when I use the same protocol.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

I’m actually so intrigued by this. Especially since the whole carb backloading and IF thing exploded last year.

[/quote]

to be fair, i havent seen many bodybuilders on carb backloading. it was mostly kiefer and his powerlifting friends.

i dont follow CBL anymore, but maybe its changed and more people hopped on.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Eventually, I began experimenting with putting more and more of my daily carbs to the feedings before my training. This also coincided with focusing on an intelligent influx of nutrients during my actual training. To me, this negated the obsessive need to race home and replenish depleted glycogen stores. It also allowed me to feel much better (mental focus, strength etc) during my actual training session.

S[/quote]

Would you say your training tends to bias toward bodybuilder type training - high volume, body part splits - versus whole body, low rep strength training?

I only ask this because I am beginning to understand context between the different metabolic pathways.

Recently I had been putting up PRs in squat, deadlift, bench press and other benchmark lifts while in a completely fasted state. The highest number of reps I have done on this cycle is 120 total reps during an entire hour. This was at the peak of my last cycle where it was particularly high in volume. Volume was gradually brought down while increasing total load for the remainder of the cycle.

My fasting blood glucose levels following these sessions were really high (over 100 mg/dl) compared while doing lower volume, higher intensity (with respect to 1RM) which were on the average 20mg/dl lower.

This tells me glucose might actually be in higher demand for high volume versus lower volume training sessions. Maybe this is intuitive enough but I am enjoying the learning experience of it all - if not the improvements in strength.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Eventually, I began experimenting with putting more and more of my daily carbs to the feedings before my training. This also coincided with focusing on an intelligent influx of nutrients during my actual training. To me, this negated the obsessive need to race home and replenish depleted glycogen stores. It also allowed me to feel much better (mental focus, strength etc) during my actual training session.

S[/quote]

Would you say your training tends to bias toward bodybuilder type training - high volume, body part splits - versus whole body, low rep strength training?

I only ask this because I am beginning to understand context between the different metabolic pathways.

Recently I had been putting up PRs in squat, deadlift, bench press and other benchmark lifts while in a completely fasted state. The highest number of reps I have done on this cycle is 120 total reps during an entire hour. This was at the peak of my last cycle where it was particularly high in volume. Volume was gradually brought down while increasing total load for the remainder of the cycle.

My fasting blood glucose levels following these sessions were really high (over 100 mg/dl) compared while doing lower volume, higher intensity (with respect to 1RM) which were on the average 20mg/dl lower.

This tells me glucose might actually be in higher demand for high volume versus lower volume training sessions. Maybe this is intuitive enough but I am enjoying the learning experience of it all - if not the improvements in strength.[/quote]

thought you might find this article interesting based on your post.

Your Sympathetic Nervous System = Energy in A Fasted State

For the longest time, I didnâ??t understand why I had more energy after fasting. I have my most productive hardcore workouts after fasting for 5-18 hours. If I ate anything in that 4-5 hour window before training, the workouts just werenâ??t as intense. Ori Hofmekler explained where this â??hiddenâ?? energy source came fromâ?¦the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS).

Why Does The SNS Kick In When in A Fasted State?

Ori explains it bestâ?¦

â??When fasting, a primal survival mechanism known as the fight-or-flight reaction to stress is triggered, maximizing your bodyâ??s capacity for generating energy, being alert, resisting fatigue and resisting stress. The survival mode is primarily controlled by a part of the autonomic nervous system known as the sympathetic nervous system, or SNS. When itâ??s in gear, the body is in its most energy-producing phase, and thatâ??s when the most energy comes from fat burning.â??

This makes sense, because as hunters and gatherers our ancestors needed to be at our peak performance when hungry in order to catch the next meal (kind of like the mountain lion pictured above).

Eating Before Working Out Interrupts This Surge of Energy

Ori explains how the Parasympathetic Nervous System slows you down after a meal. Note: In the article Iâ??m quoting he is talking about morning meals and not eating before your morning workoutâ?¦

â??If you do eat a breakfast of, say, bagel, cereal, egg and bacon, youâ??ll most likely shut down this energy-producing system. The SNS and its fight-or-flight mechanism will be substantially suppressed, and your morning meal will trigger an antagonistic part of the autonomic nervous system known as the para sympathetic nervous system, or PSNS. The PSNS will make you sleepy, slow and less resistant to fatigue and stress. Instead of spending energy and burning fat, your body will be more geared toward storing energy and gaining fat.â??

Ori, recommends mainly eating at night after your physical activities are done for the day. He claims that food makes your body relax and prepares the body for sleep.

You Can Have an Intense Workout While Fasting

As I stated earlier, I have a better workout in a fasted state. Not only do I have more energy, I donâ??t burp up a meal when doing an intense interval or circuit. So, my argument is that working out while fasting allows the body to burn more calories during AND after your workout.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Eventually, I began experimenting with putting more and more of my daily carbs to the feedings before my training. This also coincided with focusing on an intelligent influx of nutrients during my actual training. To me, this negated the obsessive need to race home and replenish depleted glycogen stores. It also allowed me to feel much better (mental focus, strength etc) during my actual training session.

S[/quote]

Would you say your training tends to bias toward bodybuilder type training - high volume, body part splits - versus whole body, low rep strength training?

I only ask this because I am beginning to understand context between the different metabolic pathways.

Recently I had been putting up PRs in squat, deadlift, bench press and other benchmark lifts while in a completely fasted state. The highest number of reps I have done on this cycle is 120 total reps during an entire hour. This was at the peak of my last cycle where it was particularly high in volume. Volume was gradually brought down while increasing total load for the remainder of the cycle.

My fasting blood glucose levels following these sessions were really high (over 100 mg/dl) compared while doing lower volume, higher intensity (with respect to 1RM) which were on the average 20mg/dl lower.

This tells me glucose might actually be in higher demand for high volume versus lower volume training sessions. Maybe this is intuitive enough but I am enjoying the learning experience of it all - if not the improvements in strength.[/quote]

Yeah, recently I’ve kind of noticed the trend that it’s guys like Kiefer, Stu, Ebomb, who advocate more peri-WO carbs, the traditional BB’ers who take multiple lifts and high-rep sets to failure. Then I look that those that IF and CBL have worked for a lot are MOSTLY Pl’ers and those oriented towards strength (Like Martin Berkhan himself). I’ve been using CBL for awhile, but the first program I used it for was an Ed Coan inspired ‘Powerbuilding’ thing, and now I’m running Big Beyond Belief, which still, even at it’s most intense parts, has only 20 total sets to failure in any given day. So what you’re talking about, with different metabolic pathways, is interesting.

[quote]thefreshmanverve wrote:

I never really looked into it by reading the study or anything but have been following
the approach of protein only right after.(cuz it kind of made sense to me we’re lifting weights not running a a marathon i would imagine replenishing glycogen stores not being a severe issue)

I’ve also been doing the lots of carbs preworkout. I’ve experimented and felt the best during the entire training session when eating wheat thins about an hour pre. [/quote]

It takes longer than an hour for the glucose of those wheat thins to be converted to glycogen before training. Your physiologic response to training in a fed state is likely attributed to your psychological mood from being in that state.

Most people can store up to 2000 kcal as glycogen. Muscle glycogen account for 2/3 - 3/4 of total glygcogen stores and is only accessed in the absence of oxygen during high intensity exertion. Liver glycogen makes up the remainder and is released in response to glucogon when bloodsugar/insulin drops below certain levels.

Assuming about 1500kcal is available to the muscles how much anaerobic work would a trained athlete have to do to burn through it all in an average training session?

Assuming the aerobic pathway is completely ignored during training (which it isn’t) 1500 kcal equals 26GJ of energy. Assume a training session lasts 60 minute and every second of it is used with constant activity.

Assume also Energy is equal to mass times distance squared divided by time squared.

E = (m * d^2)/t^2

26GJ*3600sec^2 = 336960000kg-m^2

Assume a 100kg person pushing his own bodyweight on a frictionless, level surface:

336960000kg-m^2/200kg = 1684800m^2

= 1.2 km

A 100kg person would have to push his own body weight a distance of 1.2 km nonstop in an hour to burn through 1500 kcal of muscle glycogen.

Looked at another way:

Assume a range of motion for a full back squat at 2 total meters down and up. How many reps must a 100kg man do in an hour at his own body weight to burn 1500kcal

336960000kg-m^2/200kg = 1684800^-2m = 1.2km

total reps = 1200m/2m = 600reps. This is equivalent to 10 reps/minute every minute for an hour.

This figure needs to be adjusted higher because total bodyweight will not add to total weight lifted due to body mechanics.

Please check my math.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
thought you might find this article interesting based on your post.
[/quote]

Thanks.