T Nation

Post Workout Insulin Use


#1

Starting this Monday, I plan on experimenting conservatively with Novolog post workout (M-W-F), using 2-6 IU. For the record, Novolog's a bit faster than Humalog...it starts working in 5 minutes, peaks in 45-75 minutes, and is gone in 3 1/2-4 hours.

My usual post workout nutrition is 60 grams of whey, 80 grams of carbs (either dextrose or an energy type of drink)right afterwards, then a protein/carb solid meal an hour or so later.

Should I take the insulin with around 15 grams per IU simple carbs directly after the workout, have my 60 gram whey shake along with some simple and complex carbs 45 minutes later, then consume a solid protein/complex carb meal at around the 2 hour mark?

Any suggestions would be welcome.


#2

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#3

Where exactly have you found evidence that it hits faster IM than SubQ? I like shooting SubQ more than IM, but if IM helps more, I'll gladly do that.

I'd look myself, but I have before and didn't find anything strong enough to prove your point.


#4

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#5

You suck! How's that for a reality check? Just kidding. :slightly_smiling:

Anyway... I'll just continue sticking it in the bit of fat above my abs. Seems to have worked fine so far, and I'll stick with it unless I see very strong evidence showing that IM injections are much better.


#6

SubQ, either stomach or thighs. I'm pretty well read on the use of it, but have found somehat subtle differences in the carb ingestion end of it. I'll definitely take in about 100 grams of protein during the 3 hour period. Like I said, I'll always err on the side of caution. I have no intentions of ever using more than 6 iu 3x weekly, and only for a 4-6 week period, depending on if I'm happy with the results.

A few more things I'm curious about...

  1. Have you had probs with fat gain while using post-workout insulin? Do you think this is related to excessive carbs or taking in fat during the 3-5 hour period that insulin is active? (I'm not planning on taking T3 during insulin use)

  2. Is glutamine necessary when taking insulin...are there any other OTC compounds that increase it's effectiveness? I do plan on taking around 10-15 grams of creatine pw.

  3. Have you been happy with the results from pw insulin use? Ever tried it in combination with IGF-1?


#7

Not much of value to add as it was a loooong time ago, but if you are bulking Insulin is incredible. I did a cycle of transdermal finaplex implants, some test and some insulin only after my workouts.

I was young and did not know as much about nutrition and did not even care about my health so I ate non-stop burgers, milk etc to get big. People might holler bullshit but on an 8 week cycle I gained almost 40 pounds. It was amazingly uncomfortable and I felt like shit but I hit 260 large and bloated pounds at 5'8" and thats no bullshit.

again nothing scientific or thought out, just gallons of milk, burger king and powerlifting style workouts. Not advising this at all, but if you were desperate like i was and a little crazy it was a insane.

P.S. If you are young and impressionable do not follow this advice


#8

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#9

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#10

There are more studies but look at this one (resume) (Lispro insulin reffers to "Humalog Lispro" the faster insulin avalaible):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9737803&dopt=Abstract


Intramuscular versus subcutaneous injection of soluble and lispro insulin: comparison of metabolic effects in healthy subjects.

Rave K, Heise T, Weyer C, Herrnberger J, Bender R, Hirschberger S, Heinemann L.

Department of Metabolic Diseases and Nutrition, WHO Collaborating Centre for Diabetes, Heinrich Heine University, Dusseldorf, Germany. klaus.rave@uni-duesseldorf.de

The aim of this study was to compare the glucodynamic effects of soluble insulin and the rapid acting insulin analogue insulin lispro after subcutaneous (s.c.) and intramuscular (i.m.) injection. Twelve healthy male volunteers (age 26.8 +/- 1.7 years, BMI 23.2 +/- 2.3 kg m(-2); mean +/- SD) participated in this single-centre, open-labelled, euglycaemic glucose clamp study on four different days. Soluble insulin or insulin lispro (0.2 U kg(-1)) were injected s.c. or i.m. into the thigh by syringe. The glucodynamic effects were assessed by registering the glucose infusion rates necessary to maintain blood glucose at 5.0 mmol l(-1) for the subsequent 420 min. Intramuscular injection of soluble insulin led to an earlier peak of metabolic action when compared to s.c. administered soluble insulin (tmax 138 +/- 29 vs 179 +/- 34 min; p < 0.05). The maximal metabolic effect and metabolic activity during the first 2 h after i.m. and s.c. injection of soluble insulin were comparable (GIRmax 9.7 +/- 2.3 vs 7.8 +/- 2.3 mg kg(-1) min(-1); n.s., AUC0-120min 0.60 +/- 0.18 vs 0.50 +/- 0.15 g kg(-1) 120 min; n.s.). Subcutaneous administration of insulin lispro led to a metabolic effect resembling that induced by i.m. application of soluble insulin (tmax 116 +/- 26 vs 138 +/- 29 min; n.s., GIRmax 11.1 +/- 2.3 mg vs 9.7 +/- mg kg(-1) min(-1); n.s.). However, the overall metabolic response during the first 2 h after injection was higher with s.c. insulin lispro (AUC0-120min 0.81 +/- 0.26 vs 0.60 +/- 0.18 g kg(-1) 120 min; p < 0.05). The glucodynamic activity of i.m. applied insulin lispro was comparable to that of lispro s.c.. Following i.m. injection of soluble insulin, the metabolic activity peaked more rapidly than with s.c. administration. In contrast, the metabolic effect of insulin lispro was similar with either route. The time-action profile of i.m. injected soluble insulin lies between that of s.c. applied soluble insulin and insulin lispro.

And one more:

http://listserv.lehigh.edu/lists/diabetic/html/insulin.html

(I paste only the remarkable info reffered to your question).


.....................
2. Which causes faster absorption - intramuscular
injection or subcutaneous?

Intramuscular (IM) injection is faster. However, IM
injection is NOT for routine use, and it has its risks.
It's definitely not for the uninitiated. It's possible
only if you are not very fat in the area, and most
likely to go right in the shoulder (deltoid) area. You
also need a longer needle to reach the muscle,
although thin persons can get to the muscle easily
with the regular subcutaneous (SC) needle.
........................................
5. Does skinfold thickness affect absorption?

The fatter the area, the slower the absorption.
Absorption may also be delayed in areas affected by
lipohypertrophy.

  1. How does exercise affect insulin absorption?

Exercise of the injection area increases absorption of
the insulin in that area. If you exercise the area that
was injected, the muscles underneath squeeze the
insulin faster.
........................................


#11

Mickey, have you started your insulin yet? I am curious to see how your results are. I have been using Novolog or Humolog for a couple years. I read how it's so great and can make you a monster. It is not as great as you may have read.

First, i'm sure you may know that it's all about timing and how much you deplete yourself (glycogen stores). You will get fat if you don't train like a freak and deplete your glyco stores greatly (before you inject and have you shake).

Either train on a somewhat emptyish stomach or do cardio before or after then have your shake. Or, if you have a moderate to low carb diet (like me) your stores are always lower. I have found that I have more strength and energy if I shoot a couple units before or midway through my workout and sip a protein/carb shake while working out.

The bigger body parts will require you to use less insulin and be more cautious with your insulin dose. If you train legs hard a smaller amount of insulin will make you go hypo. The amazing thing that exercise does is increases your sensitivity to insulin.

If I train very hard I can clear nutrients out of my blood stream with no or hardly any insulin. I am a type 1 diabetic and could NOT even begin to imagine being a diabetic and not weight training. I would need twice the insulin and it would not work as well or as quickly.

I have been somewhat conservative with my dose. This website will laugh at my 3-4 units of insulin and only about 30-50 grams of dextrose/malto/protein drink. I could use more insulin and injest more carbs but I have not. I try to remain lean.

I have inquired about this with pro bodybuilders and some type 1 bodybuilders, but as you can imagine they are reluctant to tell me the truth and how they really use it. Be careful if you start using insulin. Carry a sleeve of the glucose tabs with you.

I have adapted to lower blood sugars to keep on the healthier side and have had my blood sugar down to 33-34. I am still coherent but a little goofy at that point. You would be in wonderland at 34. Also one thing you have to realize is that your body still produces insulin so this makes it more tricky for you.

The pancreas is very clever, it works in two phases, phase 1 and 2. Maybe i'll pound myself in the gym and shoot 5-6 units and ingest 60-70 grams of carbs. I post my results and tell you if I become Johnny O overnight. Good luck.