Scott, you sound pathetic beggin Kandi to bring women. What’s the matter, are you gettin no love in the UK? Oh and BTW, dont worry about glutacene, if it does have licorice, it’s not enough to do anything negative to your “boyz”.
Kandi, nice to hear from you on the site. You seem quite knowledgable. Youre correct in licorice’s estrogenic effects. In fact licorice antagonizes testosterone in addition to it’s estrogenic properties! Yuck! Also, I agree with your thoughs on flax/inflammation. The old fat roundtable article discusses this but doesnt go into the mechanisms you described. Im convinced that this biochemical phenomenon has some very practical benefits in helping with joint pain for lifters. Also, ribose has to be taken in huge amounts to be effective in horses. It’s a gram/kg thing where Ive heard of performance results with 30+grams prior to races. That gets damn expensive.
Timbo-As far as the preworkout protein feedings, powder or food are fine in my book. I think that John U’s ideas are great but from a cost benefit perspective, the costs of taking hydrolysates and free form aminos prior to a workout (in terms of $) are greater than the benefits. That’s why I stick with foods and save the goodies for the post-workout shake.
John U - You wrote “I don’t think the body chooses the catabolism of all the aminos in the cell first though. I think there is balance between the two. Why would there be a preference to strip the aminos out of the cell when they are readily available in the blood?”…well, there is not alot of data on where the muscles choose to catabolize aminos during training BUT think about it. There are aminos in the cell and some outside of the cell. Where are the aminos (and other nutrients) needed for energy production during training? In the cell right? Well then why waste time trying to take in the aminos from the blood when youve got the aminos right there in the cell to run glycolysis. It’s just inefficient to expect the body to try to expend energy transporting aminos into the cell and to the site of catabolism rather than just consuming the ones there already. See what I mean. The point…blood aminos do not regulate intracellular protein or substrate flux.
For John U.- Thank you for your input too! You are correct, the needs of animals, in some cases, different than that of humans. And yes, many similarities are shared that shouldn’t be overlooked as well.
As for John Berardi’s formula, I do feel it will be a positive inforcer. In fact many of the supplements you all are using can also be found available for horses. Some examples include creatine (big seller), HMB, gamma oryzanol(trial studies showed increased muscle gains), DMG/TMG, BCAA’s (very effective), inosine, carnitine, lipoic acid etc., none of which I’m using at this point. This is not to say I am not doing anything with his diet. I am making my own formulation but would like to expound on later. Thanks again.
For Scott - I've been away from training for a while now and am not sure why you are using licorice? Licorice does have a chemical structure similar to that of human steriod hormones. It's activities are similar to those of cortisone/aldosterone and to a lesser extent, estrogen. It induces the adrenal cortex to produce larger amounts of cortisone and aldosterone. The component responsible for it's steroid-like activites is "glycyrrhizin," (aprox. amount to be 150,000ppm). In addition licorice is about 50x sweeter than sucrose. There's about 100,000ppm sucrose and 45,000ppm glucose in the root. Don't know all the sugars but total carbohydrate exceeds well over 700,000ppm. This is one reason why diabetics are best advised to avoid this herb. In addition caution should be used. Because of the larger amounts of aldosterone glycyrrhizin is able to produce it is best to add some potassium to control the increase in water retention that many people experience when using licorice. Blood pressure increases have also been noted. If you have hyper adrenal function it is best to avoid it all together. Long-term use(over 3 weeks)is not adviced containing large doses(exceeding 30 grams a week)which is the amount that will cause these effects. One more thing - large doses for several weeks will decrease testosterone levels.
As for the amino acids I'm using(as in horse I assume) I am giving a high protein (more than the normal requirements)based feed, I also give my guy Myoplex from EAS, I give also, plant based sources of protein (phytosterols source)which consists of flax(major component), sunflower and pumpkin seeds. I buy them in there raw stage and grind them myself. In addition I use Barlean's and/or Sprectrum flax seed oil.
Thanks again and Scott I don't really have any girl "gym" friends from my day in the gym. All my friends are guys. Now if your talkin about some cowgirls I'll see what I can do. Can't promise Faith Hill though.
John, you got me. Looking back on my original reasoning I realize that I forgot to factor in the intracellular and extracellular issue. It just goes to show that simple things can be overlooked sometimes. This raises another question, if intracellular aminos are catabolized for energy then what happens to the aminos in the blood? I realize the amount insulin and glucagon will be factors in determining if the aminos cross the cell membrane. If you’re consuming a glucose drink during training then this should spare the aminos in the blood from being used by the liver, correct? Then after the training session, when insulin will be spiked by the high-glycemic drink, the aminos will already be in the blood instead of waiting for the hydrolysate to be absorbed. I don’t think this makes a huge difference in recovery but maybe it will get around the glucagon issue. If an undesirable amount of glucagon is produced in resonse to consuming too much protein then by taking the protein pre-workout the body should have more aminos to use without this problem.
Timbo…I was going to experiment with the hydrolyzed caseinate from the Protein Factory but I am not to sure on the amino ratios in it. I think that maybe by combining it with the hydrolyzed whey might be better but I’m not sure. I would suggest probably buying a mixture of both. This could be taken about 30-45min pre-workout, 30-40g of protein, and with equal amounts of creatine and ribose, 5g of each should do. John does not recommend the glutamine or BCAAs pre-workout but it’s up to you. Post-workout you can use a 50/50 mixture of maltodextrin and dextrose to add to the drink. Start with John’s recommendations and go from there. I believe they were 0.4g of protein/kg of bodyweight and twice that for carbs. I use 20g of creatine, 5g of ribose, and 25g of glutamine with mine as well. I would prefer more ribose but my budget does not permit it. For meals prior to training I would suggest lower carbs, maybe a 20/50/30 (C/P/F) or a more ketogenic ratio. After training try 30/40/30. Everyone is different and I prefer lower carbs and higher protein except after training. The majority of my carb intake is after my workout and consists of half or more of the entire calories from carbs for the day. I have not tried it yet but I think insulin post-training would work well with the meal; currently I use metformin with great success though. If you are interested try contacting SBC, his e-mail is posted on most other boards. As for reading material, Medline is good source for ABSTRACTS. To get the full article you’ll have to do a little digging. Try the library at your university. GA Tech has a huge quantity of resources and our nutritional program is great as well. I hope this helps.
Kandi...It is great to have a knowledgeable woman as yourself on the board. From your posts I can see that you really love your animals. This is much different than what I have seen with some trainers. It's nice to know there are people like you out there. I wish you the best and hope your horses do well. I would like to suggest that you give the weight training another try. I found it to be a great personal motivator and stress reliever. I can actually say that I owe my life to it. Hopefully it can help you the same way it helps me.
OK question for you guys: I’ve been
experimenting with some different formulas,
and on the protein side, so far I’ve gotten
the best results from a blend of hydrolyzed
whey, hyrolyzed caseinate, 10% glutamine
peptides and 10% BCAAs (40gm protein
including aminos) + 30gm dextrose and 40gm
malto. BUT, I have a problem tolerating all
that high GI sugar all at once. I have very
good insulin sensitivity, and my brain is also
very sensitive to blood glucose levels. So
when I take this, I get a splitting headache
from the rush of blood glucose, and then
I have a major hypoglycemic crash from it -
soon - I mean like an hour after consuming it
before I can get another meal. Is there
anyway to cope with this? Would this formula
still be effective (although obviously less
so) if I were to choose a lower GI (although
still fast digesting) carb source? Thanks for
any help.
John B. great info! Do you have a projected release date on the post workout drink?
Would adding a digestive enzyme formula to this formulation increase it’s effectiveness? As this would help with assimilation.
What about Stevia as a sweetner source for the postwork out drink. The reasons for using Stevia are two fold: #1: It has a blood sugar balancing effect (It is excellent for diabetics as a result) and #2: To help the taste out, because as you know the post workout drink is pretty bad tasting.
Some other ingredients to consider (because of there profound affect on blood sugar and or Insulin) would be Chromium, Vanadyl Sulfate, Gymenema Sylvestre and Glucosol™otherwise known as Corosolic Acid. If most people were aware of the aforementioned substances, Diabetes could be greatly helped or eliminated in most individuals.
Another thing to consider would be taking a non-timed release Niacin either 15 minutes before or with the postworkout drink in order to facilitate vasodialation.
John U…you are THE man, buddy. Thank you very much for the input. I will definitely look into it and I will most definitely get the ingredients together for the post-workout (and pre-workout) cocktail. Just a couple more questions for you at the moment. Do you buy the majority of your supplements from Protein Factory (ie. hydrolyzed protein and metaformin)? You mentioned SBC, I am not familiar with him…is he the contact for metaformin? John U, I know you said you get the majority of your carbs after training, what time do you normally train? Also, how soon after your post-workout drink do you consume your next meal? I like the ratios that you put forth for pre- and post-training, as I do think the state that the body is in at these critical times dictates the nutrients required. Man, John U, I just have loads of questions I feel like I could confront you. However, I don’t want to burden you. If this nit-picking is at all troublesome or bothersome to you, please let me know. Is there any way I could get your email address to contact you. If you are not comfortable doing so, I would be more than happy to give you mine. John U, don’t feel like you have to answer all these questions, I just get so excited and worked up…I’m sure you can identify. I want everything to be “perfect.” Thanks, John U. I’m not sure you realize how beneficial I think this will be…
Free Extropian…That sounds like a good blend and the resulting hypoglycemic effect you get from it is to be expected. This indicates it is doing what you want after training, namely pushing the aminos and glucose into the cells. If this is too much of a problem then you can take some more glucose when the beginnings of the hypoglycemic effects are felt.
Timbo…I am always glad to help others. I deal with the Protein Factory for my protein needs; they are the best by far. SBC is where I get the metformin and other stuff. The life-extensionist foundation sells it, as well I believe. I now train twice a day, once at 2-3PM and then again at 8-9PM. I lift heavy the first training session, 4-6 reps for 6 sets, and lighter for the second, 10-12 reps for 9 sets. All the carbs come post-workout and before when I trained once a day I just spread the carbs over 2 meals. I would be glad to give you my e-mail but posting it is not permitted on this board.
John U…thanks again for the input, buddy. It’s really a refresher to know there are other fellas out there who like to help guys out (actually this site’s full of guys like that). I must plead ingnorance, John U, on two previous requests/comments I made. One, asking for your email on this fourm; two, asking about metformin before I did any research on it. I now have a general idea of what/why it is used. I would be interested in experimenting with it, as I imagine that it increases/speeds up the rate of absorption of the post-workout nutrients. I am also doing some more research/looking into the suggested protein products you mentioned. Since I have never ordered with PF, I would be interested in hearing how you usually order (quantities and so on). What do you use in the post-workout drink for the maltodextrin/dextrose portion? Like I mentioned, I would be very interested in testing the pre- and post-training regular meal ratios that you utilize/suggest. Of course, I have more questions regarding that issue also. John U, you’re a big guy, I was wondering how many calories you take in a day and how many you take in during a normal mass phase? I imagine that since you are training twice/day your requirements are very high and you are in a mass phase. About the email address, I have a good idea of how I could obtain it, but that would require you giving me your name (which is something that you may not wish to do). John U, I did apply some of the counsel you offered today for pre- and post-training (mind you, I dealt with what I have at my disposal): pre-training–34g whey protein isolate/concentrate, 5g ribose&creatine, 10g glutamine; post-training–30g whey isolate/concentrate (I weigh 72kg), 56g cytomax, 10g creatine&glutamine, 5g ribose, 300mg ALA. The pre-training drink was about 45 minutes before training. I also consumed 20g of cytomax during my workout. I usually do not take a carbohydrate beverage during my workout, but my calorie intake was a little low this morning because of traveling and also because I’m used to a little more substance/calories before training. John U, do you consume any carbs with the pre-workout drink or during training? Like I’ve mentioned before, John, I just have so much running through my mind and so much that I feel I can learn from you…I don’t think it’s fair to you to keep bugging you, especially on this forum. Please let me know if I can somehow compensate you for your counsel/advice. BTW, I’d be interested in hearing more about your two per day sessions and your progress. This really is not all about ME. If you have any advice how I might come across your email, please advise. Also, I plan on hitting MEDLINE and doing some of MY OWN research. Maybe I can pass some info your way for once. Thanks, Big John U.
For John U. - Thank you John what a nice compliment. As for weight training again, I don’t think so. Sure I miss the look of having tight muscles but I must admit riding and taking care of my horse keeps just as well! I really don’t have the time anymore. Raising horses is no small task. And believe me I do a lot of weight lifting in the barn!
For John Berardi - Thank you too! Boy, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. I'm glad I did post, thanks! oops.
I do have some questions but before I go to any of them I would like to go back for a minute and discuss ribose very briefly. Are you POSITIVE that ribose was given to those horses prior to racing? Very important. Seems ribose whether used alone, with creatine, and with creatine/amino/high glycemic based caused horses in a field trial study to crash (blood sugar). It appears to have a hypoglycemic effect. This all occurs if given 1 to 2 hours prior to race. What was noticed was an attitude change with high glycemic base. Lasted up until race time. During race they crashed. Have you, or anyone else for the matter ever experienced this with yourself; and/or have any clues why this might happen in certain species and not others?
One more question if I may? Has anyone compared performance with ribose, even with all other proven ergogenics at the same time, to performance without keeping all other variables the same?
Thx for all the good info guys.
good to see some people with some real knowledge/ experience. Got me really thinking about changing my post-workout drink via a
create-your-own deal via this Protein Factory that youve been writing about.
About ribose, Ive done some performance trials with it in intermittent cycle exercise and we saw some effects in terms of peak and mean power over 10s intervals. Nothing earth shattering. Something like 3-10% improvement. As far as the hypoglycemic effects, yes they can be profound. Ive seen that first hand with clients and seen some data presented as well. The authors of 1 study estimated a max “nonhypoglycemic dose” of 5g for humans. This is where the dilemma comes into play. Ribose is not stored in the body. So a dose of ribose will be metabolized and taken in vain if it’s not being used in purine nucleotide turnover. So that’s why people are taking it right before a training bout or a race. Like within 30-60min or so. You need enough time to reach the blood for the training session but not so much time to get hypoglycemic.
I noticed that a lot of people are mixing ribose with aminos. I was under the impression that this would render ribose useless. I heard that the ribose in meat reacts with the aminos to give meat a brown color. Is it possible the same thing could happen if you take ribose with aminos?
Timbo…The Protein Factory is great! Try ordering in small amounts first. There is no sense in ordering a huge quantity if it ends up not working for you, I’m sure there will be no problem with this though. For maltodextrin/dextrose use a 50/50 mix and post-workout take in about twice the amount of protein. My current intake is about 20 Cal x lean body mass (LBM) = 4400 Cal, 2.5xLBM in protein = 550gP = 2200 Cal, 2xLBM in carbohydrates = 440gC = 1760 Cal, and the rest is from fat (EFA’s). Before training the meal consists of only 40g of protein from hydrolysate. After training the meal consists of 80g of protein from hydrolysate and 160g of carbs from the maltodextrin/dextrose mix. These are taken twice per day each. The other 120g of carbs are spread out between the workouts and after the final workout. I lay off 6 hours between training sessions. The first three meals of the day before the first workout are equal in protein and fat, usually fish or chicken and flax. These are relatively low calorie meals and the majority of protein I eat comes later after or between workouts. At night I will eat from a whole protein source like top round steak or chicken before bed. This is my current mass phase and I have yet to add back in the glucose drink during training. A small apple immediately before training seems to help too. If they let me post this I will post a message with the subject header “Timbo” on the renegadebodybuilding website. It should not be hard to find with that name given. I hope to hear from you.
Kandi…As I said before I don’t have the experience or knowledge that you do of animals but ribose works extremely well for me, even by itself. I think it works much better than creatine but it take quite a bit to get the right effect. 20g was the highest I went before training and works better than 10g. I don’t know what the threshold is but it would make for an interesting study. Experimenting with intake time and dosage seems the only way to be sure. As for the hypoglycemic effect, I have never experienced it but maybe the ribose adversely affects gluconeogenesis. This is a simple explanation but probably not the correct one. I wish I could be of more help.
GC…Have I seen you before? Do you work out at Barbell Club or SAC? I think I was the first to actually wear a T-rone shirt in Barbell Club only because I needed a shirt for training.
John U, I am also from Tech (I am a Ph.D. student in Computer Science) and I have talked to you before.
By the way, as a testament to John U’s progress, I remember seeing you before last summer and after and I thought you gained a lot of mass during that time. Is that all a result of the pre/post-workout nutrition? You just became fucking huge over the course of 4 months or so!
Metformin was mentioned earlier…my question in light of pw drinks is what would be the optimal timing to take it? I have read on another board that 30 to 45 minutes before taking the pw drink would be best. Suggestions?
John U. Hmm, im not sure that we have met. But
as I do work out as SAC daily (evenings usually), im sure that I have seen you before.
Im often there with a different training partner – a few friends of mine like to go…just not always at the same time. Im also CHE – actually graduated from GT in the Fall,
and am back as a grad student.
John’s Berardi and U. - Thanks! I have to say I’m still somewhat confused so please bare with me a minute.
Using ribose pre-training, race, etc. simply does not make sense. During a race for example, there probabely isn’t no de novo synthesis of ATP, nor is there any time for that. The direct effects of both ribose and creatine are only significant for a few seconds after which glycogen stores do provide the necessary ATP by recycling ADP. Though ribose can enter glucose pathways via the pentose phosphate shunt it doesn’t yeild any significant amount of ATP. Isn’t the pathway only a very minor significance in skeletal muscle (much more active in cardio). If there is a significant role for ribose in athletics as an ergogenic wouldn’t it seem logical post-exercise or used daily to resuplly ribose during periods of synthesis?
I am not aware of any likely reasoning for a ribose deficiency. In the absence of actual deficiencies of a substance the only two proven ergogenic effects has been seen with creatine and glucose for us. Benefits that were tested using other substances such as inosine, pyruvate, lactate applied only to extreme deficient conditions not to the already effcient function of metabolic pathways under physiologic conditions. What big part of this dilemma am I missing? Is there any proof that a ribose decifiency exists, and/or that avaialability is a rate limiting step in ATP formation?
Sorry for all the questions but would like to know why this is working for you minus the hypoglycemic effects.
Kandi
Oh and BTW, dont worry about glutacene, if it does have licorice, it’s not enough to do anything negative to your “boyz”.