T Nation

Post-Workout Carb Question

So I have been trying to piece together what makes for an optimal post-workout meal. I understand that managing insulin, especially to spike it post-workout is crucial.

So I make sure to get my simple carbs along w/ my protein. What is good to include post workout to increase insulin sensitivity? I have read about chromium, Alpha lipoic acid…what else? and how much?

Sugar works.

Don’t waste your money on Chrominum picolinate. Research says it doesn’t do all the magical things it claims.

medog, do you have impaired insulin sensitivity? If so, then there are numerous options to help your insulin sensitivity. Fish oil is a good start for anyone.

You mentioned Alpha Lipoic Acid, but if you’ve only been reading ad copy (including “articles” in other mags) then you should probably check out this objective review: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1004313

[quote]David Barr wrote:
medog, do you have impaired insulin sensitivity? If so, then there are numerous options to help your insulin sensitivity. Fish oil is a good start for anyone.

You mentioned Alpha Lipoic Acid, but if you’ve only been reading ad copy (including “articles” in other mags) then you should probably check out this objective review: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1004313 [/quote]

Further to this I would focus on supplementing with the R nomer of ALA as the S nomer actually inhibits the effectiveness of R-ALA. One good product I’ve found is AST’s R-ALA 200. It gives you 200 mg of R-ALA through one pill rather than SAN’s which is 100 mg per pill. Take it 30 minutes prior to your carbohydrate meal to ensure it is active in your bloodstream before taking in your carbs - especially your simple sugars.

As Dave mentions, fish oils will also temper the effects of higher GI carbohydrates and improve sensitivity once a part of your supplement regime over time (3-4 weeks from what I’ve read).

Hope that helps.

Sasha

Maltodextrin,usually in protien,some fuckin honey and some oatmeal!Best cheap insulin shock you can get!

No I do not have any insulin sensitivity problems. But I would like to do all that is possible to increase my sensitivity to improve my ability to store my postworkout nutrients in muscle tissue rather than be stored as fat.

That’s good thinking. It seems that whenever something is marketed for the purposes of improved insulin sensitivity, it works best for diabetics, but not so well in people without impaired sensitivity.

Although Lipoic Acid works to drop glucose levels, it seems to directly activate the insulin receptor (which we don’t necessarily want), and directly induce glucose uptake itself -both of these mechanisms of action are not what we are looking for, and for our purposes should not be considered “insulin sensitivity”.

There is also the issue of increasing glucose uptake into fat cells (which, if we’re ignoring the above discussion, would generally be considered elevated fat cell sensitivity), among the other potential problems.

[quote]medog11 wrote:
No I do not have any insulin sensitivity problems. But I would like to do all that is possible to increase my sensitivity to improve my ability to store my postworkout nutrients in muscle tissue rather than be stored as fat. [/quote]

So it sounds like lipoic acid wouldn’t be the way to go. So fish oil supplementation would be the best way to go especially because of all of its other benefits then… anything else?

[quote]David Barr wrote:
That’s good thinking. It seems that whenever something is marketed for the purposes of improved insulin sensitivity, it works best for diabetics, but not so well in people without impaired sensitivity.

Although Lipoic Acid works to drop glucose levels, it seems to directly activate the insulin receptor (which we don’t necessarily want), and directly induce glucose uptake itself -both of these mechanisms of action are not what we are looking for, and for our purposes should not be considered “insulin sensitivity”.

There is also the issue of increasing glucose uptake into fat cells (which, if we’re ignoring the above discussion, would generally be considered elevated fat cell sensitivity), among the other potential problems.

medog11 wrote:
No I do not have any insulin sensitivity problems. But I would like to do all that is possible to increase my sensitivity to improve my ability to store my postworkout nutrients in muscle tissue rather than be stored as fat. [/quote]

Dave,

So even with highly elevated CHO based meals you would recommend against the supplementation of ALA or are you just talking about the post-workout window?

Now I follow you regarding not supplementing with ALA when no carbohydrates are present but surely PWO when we do have CHOs present we would want to activate receptors to improve uptake and avoid fat storage.

With regards to the fat cell uptake, again, especially in the post-workout window our depleted glycogen stores are seeking replenishment and would more actively uptake the glucose into the muscle cell rather than the fat one.

Interesting discussion to say the least.

Sasha

[quote]SashaG wrote:

Dave,

So even with highly elevated CHO based meals you would recommend against the supplementation of ALA or are you just talking about the post-workout window? [/quote]

I inadvertently destroyed the idea of the post-workout window here: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

But if it existed, ALA doesn’t do anything that we’d want during that period. The fact that it may hinder protein synthesis and glycogen storage suggests the opposite.

[quote]
Now I follow you regarding not supplementing with ALA when no carbohydrates are present but surely PWO when we do have CHOs present we would want to activate receptors to improve uptake and avoid fat storage.[/quote]

The CHO should activate the insulin receptors to the extent that is desired, but it’s hard to comment much about that (because we don’t have the details yet).

As far as avoiding fat storage, from carbs, ALA stimulates the insulin receptor and glucose uptake into fat cells, which contradicts our goal.

It seems that there is a misunderstanding that ALA only works on muscle cells.

[quote]
With regards to the fat cell uptake, again, especially in the post-workout window our depleted glycogen stores are seeking replenishment and would more actively uptake the glucose into the muscle cell rather than the fat one.[/quote]

Naturally, yes. But with ALA in the picture, indiscriminately activating insulin receptors and storing glucose, that changes things.

As in the Barrticle, I’m not trying to say that ALA is “bad” or makes people fat. We simply don’t have all of the information available to make the kind of conclusions that people (and marketing) are making. In fact, most ideas seem to be contradicted.

Good questions, and I agree about the interesting discussion.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
SashaG wrote:

Dave,

So even with highly elevated CHO based meals you would recommend against the supplementation of ALA or are you just talking about the post-workout window?

I inadvertently destroyed the idea of the post-workout window here: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

But if it existed, ALA doesn’t do anything that we’d want during that period. The fact that it may hinder protein synthesis and glycogen storage suggests the opposite.

Now I follow you regarding not supplementing with ALA when no carbohydrates are present but surely PWO when we do have CHOs present we would want to activate receptors to improve uptake and avoid fat storage.

The CHO should activate the insulin receptors to the extent that is desired, but it’s hard to comment much about that (because we don’t have the details yet).

As far as avoiding fat storage, from carbs, ALA stimulates the insulin receptor and glucose uptake into fat cells, which contradicts our goal.

It seems that there is a misunderstanding that ALA only works on muscle cells.

With regards to the fat cell uptake, again, especially in the post-workout window our depleted glycogen stores are seeking replenishment and would more actively uptake the glucose into the muscle cell rather than the fat one.

Naturally, yes. But with ALA in the picture, indiscriminately activating insulin receptors and storing glucose, that changes things.

As in the Barrticle, I’m not trying to say that ALA is “bad” or makes people fat. We simply don’t have all of the information available to make the kind of conclusions that people (and marketing) are making. In fact, most ideas seem to be contradicted.

Good questions, and I agree about the interesting discussion.

[/quote]

Well interesting information indeed. I will admit that the majority of my research done on R-ALA focused on diabetics and controlled testing on rats. One more question then Dave, when you are discussing ALA, do you mean R-ALA or regular ALA. The reason I ask is because in a lot of the literature I’ve found, S-ALA was the nomer that inhibited glycogen uptake into the muscles.

I just want to make sure we’re talking about the same thing.

Cheers,

Sasha

Good call. There were a lot of studies covered in the article, but I believe that they were r-ALA. At the very least, I don’t recall any that specified a mix, whatever that’s worth.

[quote]SashaG wrote:
Well interesting information indeed. I will admit that the majority of my research done on R-ALA focused on diabetics and controlled testing on rats. One more question then Dave, when you are discussing ALA, do you mean R-ALA or regular ALA. The reason I ask is because in a lot of the literature I’ve found, S-ALA was the nomer that inhibited glycogen uptake into the muscles.

I just want to make sure we’re talking about the same thing.

Cheers,

Sasha
[/quote]

i usually just make a shake with whey, yogurt (natural and unflavored), a few raw eggs plus honey, random fruits and berries and some cinnoman. you’ll get plenty of carbs and all the other benefits fruits offer plus your protein and extra sugar from the honey.