T Nation

Post & Post-Post Workout Meals

Is this ok for training days, regarding getting carbs in during/after on a mass gaining plan:

Surge during/after workout

1 hour later Classic Grow, dried apricots, raisins and banana

2-3 hours later Classic Grow and oats

Is the middle meal ok, should I worry if it is too high GI or is this what I’m actually after?

Cheers

Chris

Not bad for bulking at all, not bad. However give us the number of cals and grams of carbs, pro an fats in those meals as well, to better analyze them for you.

Question, whats your pre workout meal like?

planbeta, as far as PWO carbs go, you should be eating starchy carbs like oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, brown rice instead of eating fruit.

The reason for eating carbs PWO is to refill muscle glycogen stores. Fruit is generally high in fructose. Fructose refills LIVER glycogen stores (which is not the goal PWO). What’s even worse, if you eat enough fructose and top off liver glycogen stores, any additional fructose you take in will be converted to triglyceride and stored as adipose tissue. NOT GOOD!

TT- so when would you advise the addition of fruit into ones meal plan?

If Im only getting in 2 P/C meals per day (which occur PW)…I dont really have many other chances to get in some fruit.

Hey, 3x!!!

The 2 best times to take in fruit, if you’re going to take in fruit, is the first meal of the day and PWO. But remember, you get the same health benefits eating your green (and other colored) veggies as you do fruit.

It boils down to the amount of fruit you’re taking in (a serving or a meal’s worth) and your body composition goals. It’s a balance. If you’re making progress, don’t worry about the fruit you’re eating. If you’re not making the progress you’d like, switch out some of the fruit you’re eating for green veggies or save your fruit for your cheat days.

Saving fruit and dairy (same problem) for cheat days and getting all carbs from green veggie sources (except for Surge PWO) broke one T-Magger’s plateau on the T-Dawg diet just recently.

Does that help?

Thanks for the info mate!

I’d still like to get my fruit in as much as possible. So I guess if I split up my servings instead of eating them all in one go would be a much better approach eg.

PWO - Surge

PPWO - Grow, Oats, Raisins

PPPWO - Grow, Oats, Apricots

Also while we’re talking fructose, isn’t there any fruit lower in fructose and higher in glucose eg. I think I recall someone saying a really ripe banana is more glucose than fructose?

[My Pre-work out meal is a spinach omlette with some flax. This is my first meal of the day. And then my last two meals of the day are two P+F meals eg. Salmon/Veggies, Cottage Cheese/Fish Oil/Brazils.]

Once again thanks for the info :slight_smile:

Cheers

Chris

Also, think I read somewhere that the carb source in Grow! is fructose, is this correct?

Ok, been reading around a bit…

Cy’s Forbidden Fruit article is enlightening!

Also these posts:

CY: “Fructose is the saccharide that is least likely to cause you to store bodyfat. It has a very low GI. It isn’t as efficient as say, glucose, in replenishing muscle glycogen stores, but it certainly will provide a source of energy for muscle cells. Also remember that fructose is an insulin independent monosaccharide. Meaning insulin or very minute amounts are needed for it to be stored. Most fruits have a low GI. For this reason, they probably shouldn’t be used for post workout, with the possible exception of grape juice, but even that has fructose in it, thus lowering the GI. I think the point Bill was trying to make was that when maximizing the potential to store glycogen, you may want to consume maltodextrin or dextrose. When dieting, however, as long as you’re consuming less than you expend, then fruits certainly won’t make you fat. The article, “The Forbidden Fruit” goes into detail about this. Fruits and fructose have been bashed for too long with little evidence to jusitify it. It has a lot of benefits.”

Mr Berardi: “When talking of fruits and fructose, it is important to clarify one point. Fructose is a component of fruit but there are certainly other sugars as well in fruit. Get a nutrition text and find out which fruits have what levels of each sugar. Fructose has a very low glycemic index so a fruit high in this sugar would also have a low GI. Most fruits have different GIs because they have different proportions of dextrose, glucose, fructose, etc. You get the point. Now, fructose itself isnt evil when consumed in moderation in the diet. If fructose makes up the main portion of your diet, however, you could have problems due to increased LDL, decreased HDL, etc. The reason for this is that fructose has a very unconventional way of being metabolically processed. Because of its structure, it cant be metabolized like glucose. Instead it has to go through extensive processing in the liver. This is why Bill recommended another sugar for postworkout glycogen resynthesis. You see, fructose is slow to get into the blood (low GI) AND when it finally gets there, it doesnt even go directly to muscle but instead goes to the liver. So, postworkout nutrition should not include alot of fructose. Personally I eat some very high GI carbs with a small amount of fruit for the post workout. Probably 80grams to 10grams of nonfructose-fructose. Not for any other reason than I really like eating frozen blueberries and strawberries in my cereal and cottage cheese. For the remainder of the day, though, moderate fructose consumption is fine. Fruits taste good and are very good for you!”

So all this and what TampaTerry has said have persauded me to rethink my fruit timing:

WO - Surge
PWO - Oats and Bagel and a FEW Raisins
PPWO - Oats and Apricots

That’s all my P+C meals gone for the day, so it will be just two small portions of fruit on training days as I’m guessing it’s not a brilliant idea to have fruit with the P+F meals?

So, I’ll work in a piece of fruit for each of the 3 P+C meals on non training days which will be the first three meals of the day (my veggies with the P+F meals).

Does that sound better than my orginal plan?

Thanks for all your help :slight_smile:

Chris

I think that the “gurus” have it wrong on fruit. When fruit is consumed in whole form fashion the sugar that everyone is worried about combines with the ample fiber and much of it is simply washed from your system.

I am a strong advocate of fruit, which was around far longer than the latest scientist, who will no doubt be proven wrong in a few years. Remember all the gurus who had all of the “science” that stated all fats are bad and all carbs are good? Where are those guys right now? I ignored those fools and I am ignoring the ones now who make their fortunes telling us to avoid fruit. What hogwash! When science bucks nature, guess which side is correct?

As a case study I have been consuming fruit (and lots of it) for over 40 years and have not only not suffered any health problems, such as high triglycerides and obesity, but have enjoyed abundant health. This not inspite of the fruit but because of it! I have further personally witnessed friends and relations who are 30 and 40 years older than me who have eaten mass amounts of fruit and continue active lifestyles medication free!

Eat meats, fish, vegetables, fruits and nuts. Stay away from as much man made food as possible. Do this on a regular basis and you will never have a health problem from eating food!

Hey ZEB totally agree, the question is not so much IF you eat fruit rather it’s more WHEN fruit should be eaten, especially with regards to PWO, any thoughts on this?

Cheers

Chris

planbeta,

I defend natural foods, including fruit for a reason. I don’t think it matters as much “when” you eat it, as much as it does “if” you eat it. Better you eat fruit at the “wrong” time of day, than either eat less of it, or eliminate it completely from your diet. Some “gurus” would have you do this!

Those lusting after muscle (I am not referring to you please do not take offense), need to step back and take the long view. What is good for your health (within reason) will ultimately be good for your muscles. What is bad for your health will utltimately be bad for your muscles. Make sense?

Ever see a dead guy flex his bicep?

Ummmm…

I really don’t think T-2 was classifying one foodstuff as “good” and another as “bad”…

All of this is a question of OPTIMIZING intake based on ones goals…

Mufasa

TT- yes, that helps…although Im a bit confused because in your first post you said that fruit was no good pwo, but in you second post you mentioned that it was one of the more optimal times to consume it.

I think I should clarify, though, that I never eat fruit as my first pwo meal…that meal is always surge (and if Im bulking, added dextrose/malto).

But normally my next two meals include fruit (a banana/pineapple with some berries). You think this is ok?

I think Im asking more about when one is bulking or maintaining. I find when Im dieting hard and getting really lean, I cant fit fruits into my diet anyway, so I dont have to worry about whether or not their impeding my progress.

So is the main carb source in Classic Grow fructose?

3xK, good catch! (grin)

Part of what should be done when making recommendations is to state the goal.

If the goal is to eat fruit (because you like it or because you feel it’s good for you), the optimal times to do so are PWO and first meal of the day. You might even be able to make argument for Pre-WO consumption, as it would refill liver glycogen slightly, which would result in more even/stable blood sugar levels going into your workout.

If the goal is optimal PWO nutrition and the emphasis is on refilling muscle glycogen, stimulating protein synthesis and reducing cortisol levels (not necessarily in that order/priority), fruit is not optimal. If I had a choice of a little more rice or a serving of fruit, rice is going to do the better job for the amount of calories taken in.

Once you know what your goals are, it’s just a case of figuring out what will get the job done – or what will BEST get the job done. There’s nothing wrong with deciding that taking in x servings of fruit is a priority/goal. There’s also nothing wrong with deciding that body composition is the priority.

One could also make argument re balance. (grin)

3xK, I’ve experimented and tried a lot of things re my diet. There were times when I was taking in a serving of fruit with every carb-up meal on a high-carb day, with the goal of intentionally refilling liver glycogen and promoting a “fed-state” stimulus. There are other times I’ve limited/eliminated fruit in my diet because I wanted to deplete liver glycogen to keep the body in fat-burning mode. Fruit is just a variable/factor that can be manipulated to suit our purposes, just like the type and/or amount of fat we take in or the amount of protein we take in or even how we time our protein intake.

There are no absolutes, and there is no one single way to achieve a stated goal.

What do you think? (grin)

Planbeta, there’s a little sucralose (Splenda), but NO fructose.

Great reply TT, thanks :slight_smile:

Like your ideas on controlling liver glycogen levels to trick the body into thinking it’s in one state or another, very neat.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know what are the carbs in Classic Grow?

Also, I’ve been trawling old threads and found this interesting post from ages ago

"Fructose is a unique sugar. It is food for the liver and does not help to replenish muscle glycogen stores. If liver
glycogen is topped off (and you can be sure that this is the case when bulking, as Justin referred to) excess fructose
is easily converted to triglycerides and stored as fat.

Also, all the carbohydrates from fruit is not solely fructose. Fructose is mainly found in the juice or liquid “part”
of the fruit, while the rest is a more starchy form of carbohydrate. Should you take in 100 grams of carbohydrates from
fruit, not a great deal of this is fructose, unless you had some unusually “juicy” fruit. Of course, this varies with
the fruit…some fruits have more fructose than others…but as far as pears, oranges, and apples; fructose does not
compose the bulk of carbohyrates from these sources."

Which begs the question, is there a database or a list of carb content makeup (glucose, fructose etc.)of different fruit, this way it can be better timed within the diet?

Thanks

Chris