T Nation

Post Cycle Therapy with Sustanon 250


#1

I'm nearing the end of my cycle of sustanon 250 and want to know how many days I am suppose to wait before using my post cycle therapy. My PCT is called Novarel and I inject every other day for 8 days. Any Feedback is appreciated.


#2

You are very confused.

Novarel is a brand of HCG, which does NOT work to reverse inhibition of the hypothalamus and pituatiary and restore LH production. Actually it increases inhibition.

So your plan is completely f’ed up.

There is a lot written on this already. I would think it could be found in stickies as well.


#3

What the fuck is Novarel? You inject that??

The reason one waits after a cycle to run PCT is so that there are no longer testosterone levels that are still suppressive when you try to start producing naturally again.

This in mind, the longest ester of Sustanon is the Decanoate ester, of which there is 100mg per 250mg. Depending on how much sust you are using you will need to wait 2-3 weeks until you begin PCT.

If the picture of you that is now in my head matches you in real life - i think 2 weeks should suffice…

Brook


#4

With all the current information out there on the net - simply masses of it, why are there so many new users that still employ the tactics for PCT and cycle design that were believed to be best over 10 years ago??

It truly baffles me. Dont get me wrong, i have tried to use HCG to recover - but that was well before i knew there were so many forums detailing current application of the drugs.

By simply posting a question on a forum, it shows that the person HAS the access and the where-with-all to get to the areas that hold the correct information - they just dont see it…

Brook


#5

What would you suggest as PCT. I have researched online and its stated that clomid and novarel do the same thing. Novarel stimulates natural testosterone production. Once all the exogenous testosterone is gone from sustanon 250 i will need my natural testosterone to kick in. I am talking to my pharmacist about it next time i see him.


#6

I think i am going to start using SuperHuman25 as my main guru of info over Bill roberts in the future…

Mate, google Bill Roberts then google the name of your pharmacist.

Your answer lies there.

Brook


#7

are you thinking of nolvadex?


#8

I don’t think he is, as Nolvadex isn’t injectable, and what are the chances of his erring in spelling Nolvadex and getting the exact correct spelling for a brand of HCG?


#9

My room mate is yelling and screaming that clearly you all have no idea what you are talking about and that you are all just 14 year old boys behind a computer talking shit. My roomate did a 12 week cycle of sustanon 250 and used novarel only 10 days after his cycle wa sinished and did not get one side effect and completely retained his results?

How can i argue this? I think you are correct with the clomid.


#10

Hahaha…man I tell you what. You and your jacked roomate go and take HCG for 8 days after a 12 week cycle of test and then two years from now when you can’t figure out why you’re depressed, lethargic, can’t get a boner, can’t please a woman, fat, etc. You can come back here and read some of the threads by previous morons who didn’t do proper PCT…which stands for post cycle therapy.

Your room mate was lucky. Bill Roberts is incredibly qualified to answer your question. Read the stickied threads at the top, read the indepth discussions on HGH, differing properties of HCG, etc. and tell me that we are all 14 year old boys talkng shit. Shit, if we were 14 year old boys then some of these guys are the next fucking Einstein.

I don’t even know why I’m trying to help you. I tell you what…pray that you have amazing recovery like your genetically gifted intelligentlly retarded roommate and go with HCG. Hundreds of others posting on the benefits of running a SERM for PCT MUST BE WRONG!!


#11

[quote]fireflyz wrote:
Hahaha…man I tell you what. You and your jacked roomate go and take HCG for 8 days after a 12 week cycle of test and then two years from now when you can’t figure out why ever since you have the following symptoms: you’re depressed, lethargic, can’t get a boner, can’t please a woman, fat, etc. You can come back here and read some of the threads by previous morons who didn’t do proper PCT…which stands for post cycle therapy.
[/quote]

even though this may sound like bandwagon propaganda, I know from experience this can indeed happen.

btw superhuman, you are a moron, your room mate is a moron.

we have tried to help you all we could and if we are all 14 y/os that knows nothing then do what ever you want

do not come back here asking questions then ask your room mate


#12

If however you do change your mind and want to listen to the asshole 14 year olds get yourself some nolvadex which can be found legally sold online by research chemical companies and two weeks after your last injection take it every day at the following dosages:
Week 1: 40mg
Week 2: 40mg
Week 3: 20mg
Week 3: 20mg


#13

Dammnit man lol i just want to know whether to do clomid or noveldex, clearly im wrong im man enough to admit that. I think ill go buy some noveldex.


#14

Either will work fine.


#15

Thank you Bill Roberts :slight_smile:


#16

Glad to be of help, and glad to have seen your plan improve!

You were right that HCG does stimulate testosterone production, but the problem is that unlike Clomid and Nolvadex, it does not do so by stimulating LH production, but only via stimulating the testes directly.

The resulting testosterone is itself further suppressive to LH.

And so HCG is good for maintaining testicular function during a cycle, but is best actually avoided during the recovery weeks.


#17

[quote]SuperHuman25 wrote:
My room mate is yelling and screaming that clearly you all have no idea what you are talking about and that you are all just 14 year old boys behind a computer talking shit. My roomate did a 12 week cycle of sustanon 250 and used novarel only 10 days after his cycle wa sinished and did not get one side effect and completely retained his results?

How can i argue this? I think you are correct with the clomid. [/quote]

Anyone can recover from the first cycle - it is commonly the EASIEST time to recover. Cold turkey will ‘work’. Sugar pills will ‘work’ - the truth is, most (thats MOST) people will recover after most, if not all <12 week cycles eventually, as the HPTA will eventually begin secreting the necessary hormones for a healthy enocrine environment (GnRH > FSH and LH > Spermatogenesis and Testosterone).

Your room-mate is confusing the fact that he did recover, with having the speediest recovery possible due to drugs used in PCT.

I am willing to bet that your room-mate has run less cycles than any men here who are experienced enough to be giving any advice in this forum, let alone younger and less well read.

As for PCT - yes, Nolvadex/Clomid/Torm will all work fine - they are Selective Estrogen Antagonist Modulator’s (SERM’s) and as such help the Hypothalamus and Pituitary (the H and P section of the HPTA) to get working again.

HCG is a drug that increases the production of Testosterone by acting as Leutenizing Hormone (LH), even with no LH being present. This is helpful during a cycle to help recovery AFTERWARDS, but if used in the high doses recommended in days gone by, and by your room-mate - it will have a few negative actions.

It will increase aromatisation of said testosterone and thus further suppression (during recovery this is not helpful obviously), it will also in high doses de-sensitize the area of the testes that secrete Testosterone (the Legdig cells) to the LH signal, so even once testosterone production does start the same amount of natural LH that you had before your cycle (if you even still produce the same amount as before - after many cycles this isnt always the case) will not stimulate the same amount of testosterone production it used to.

Let your room-mate read that.

Brook


#18

I prefer nolva over clomid.
Clomid in pct and I get mood swings, not real bad ones but I do.
Nolvadx not so much.
just a little fyi.


#19

I picked up my gear for my 1st cycle this weekend.

I chose my supplier carefully, he has reputation as a knowledgeable guru on the subject, and is known to supply quality gear. He certainly didn’t come cheap, but you want to do things right, especially the first time, not so?

After months of reading, and getting a ton of advice from the guys here on T Nation, I ordered my stuff, Test Sust 250, Deca 300, Dbol, HCG and Nolva.

I open my little bag of goodies to find he had “prescribed” and delivered the following:

Dbol @ 30-40mg per day for the 1st 4 weeks. Nothing wrong there.

For 12 weeks: 500mg per week Sust 250, and 600mg per week Deca. I immediately told him I thought the dosage for Deca was way too high for the Sust.

Then for PCT, he “instructed” me to take the Nolva AND the Pregnyl. My 1st reaction was that the Pregnyl should be take DURING the cycle.

We argued back and forth, and I was reluctant to get too cocky, because he was “the guru” and I was a total newbie doing my first cycle.

Anyway I decided on the following:

  1. Use the Pregnyl DURING the cycle. Not sure if I should just take it anyway, or ONLY if and when gyno symptoms appear. I have had real mixed advice about that on here. Would value some clear advice on that.

  2. Swapped a vial of Deca for another Sust. I want to up the Test dosage to 750mg per week and keep the Deca the same (300mg per week).

  3. Use the Nolva, starting about 3 weeks after cycle.

  4. Told him to read T-Nation

Have I done the right thing?


#20

[quote]shaun1rsa wrote:

Anyway I decided on the following:

  1. Use the Pregnyl DURING the cycle. Not sure if I should just take it anyway, or ONLY if and when gyno symptoms appear. I have had real mixed advice about that on here. Would value some clear advice on that.[/quote]

Pregnyl (HCG) has no positive effects on gyno mate - it stimulates the secretion of testosterone from the testes (acting as LH), thus keeping the balls from atrophying and keeping them active throughout - it also supplements the testosterone level during the cycle IME, making cycles much more comfortable for some reason.
HCG in high doses (over 500iu per dose) will lead to desensitization of the testes from the LH signal - making recovery an issue when that time comes, it will also lead to increased aromatisation of testosterone for an unknown reason i believe. That is the exo and endo testosterone. Nolvadex is an Estrogen Antagonist in breast tissue, and i assume you meant that.

The HCG should be used at 250iu 3x/wk[quote]

  1. Swapped a vial of Deca for another Sust. I want to up the Test dosage to 750mg per week and keep the Deca the same (300mg per week).[/quote]

You touched on the ratio of test to deca - a heated topic of contention(sp?) here.
I would say this - If you were to run 750mg of test a week, adding deca will allow you to reduce the test dosage slightly to get more gains than the test alone will provide but with less sides (less estrogen and a weaker androgen).
Deca truly has a sweet spot at 2mg/lb of bodyweight - so if you weight 200lbs then 400mg/wk is a good dosage. I have quite some experience with the drug and find this to be the case in myself and others who use the protocol. I would reduce the deca dosage from 600mg/wk sure - but not necessarily increase the test dosage. I personally (at my experience level) would use 750mg SN and 400mg ND, but for your first i would suggest 500mg SN and 300mg ND to be ample. JMO.[quote]

  1. Use the Nolva, starting about 3 weeks after cycle.[/quote]

If you run 500mg sust then 2 weeks should suffice, if 750 then the 3 will be better as the levels will still be significantly raised after 2 according to half life of the decanoate ester in the sust preparation at its peak attained dose.[quote]

  1. Told him to read T-Nation

Have I done the right thing?

[/quote]

I would say so - your guru seems to make a common mistake - and that is assuming that what was true in the application of AAS 10 years ago stands true today.
Much research has been done in that time - and more using Bodybuilders as test subjects than was the case upto the nineties… albeit nowhere near enough for my liking - but it is difficult for researchers and scientists to get funding for such projects i would assume.

The dianabol - I would suggest you think about using it for the last 5 or 6 weeks (or whatever you have enough for at the 30-40mg/wk mark). This will make use of the drug when levels of deca and sust are at their highest, AND you can run the dbol during the 2-3 weeks where there are no injections between the cycle and PCT. This will ensure you keep gaining in those weeks, and there need not be a wait between the fast acting dbol and PCT either…

FYI it is polite to make a new thread of your own and ask your questions there - rather than hi-jacking another thread. :wink:

Overall - you did better than the guru in your design of a modern cycle. Well done :slight_smile:

JJ