T Nation

Popeye's PCT Restart

So after 4 years of continuous AAS use I will be attempting a PCT with the end goal of a sustainable properly functioning system from balls to bone. A hormonal homeostasis if you will. On average per year 30 weeks have been “ON” at doses from (total compounds) ranging from 750mg to 3gr, the other 20 weeks were all TRT dosed at 200-300mg. I have taken pretty much everything but my staples for the most part are Test, Tren, Mast, EQ and more test. Oral staples are Drol, Tbol and Halo.

Blood work, libido and strength retention will be my guide to asses my level of recovery. Things like blood pressure, lipids etc will of coarse be signs of health as well.

Stats as of today: 230lbs with a very low 1700 raw total.

So for sure Im no doctor but having talked with my coach, other experienced long term users and research, this is my proposed PCT plan:

Day 1 (today): Last Test injection of 600mg, followed by 100mcg of Triptorelin.
Day 2-13 HCG: at 250iu’s a day. (Daily because I have not run HCG throughout the years, actually my last dosing was in december)
Day 14 & 15: Nolvadex at 40mg a day. Exactly 6 hours after Nolva dosed on day 15 when peak levels have been reached will be a second shot of Trip at 100mcg.
Day 16-46: Clomid 50mg a day/Nolva 20mg a day
Day 16-30: CJC 1295 at 200mcg and GHRP-6 at 300mcg (at night time) daily.
Day 31: TB500 2mg shot all at once before bed.
Day 31-50: Fragment 176 at 500mg and IGF-1-LR3 at 60mcg daily post training.
Day 50: Full blood work up and possible third trip shot if needed.

Fat intake: Increased but nothing crazy

Adex: as needed as Im anticipating a fairly large estrogen rebound.

As you can see the protocol dosing is modest for two reasons. First, I want to give my body only the things it needs to recover not simply move from dependency of certain compounds to other compounds. Secondly and most important is if the first round of PCT does not work completely, I need to have somewhere to go with my dosing. I am saving actual HGH to add into a second PCT run if needed along with higher doses of compounds mentioned above.

As for myself i am stepping into a mystical puddle of virgin unicorn piss but hopefully this can help others in similar conditions. If nothing else we can see what works and what doesn’t. A big part of this especially in the strength category is going to be mental battle as well.
If any one has anything to add from experience or see a glaring discrepancy jump in as this is good info for all.

Hopefully in the end I can make a "Long time user PCT protocol " as a guide for others after I am done being a lab rat.

I could be wrong, but shouldn’t the trip be shot after the AAS has cleared your system. Or at least started to (not the same day as a 600(!) mg injection)?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I could be wrong, but shouldn’t the trip be shot after the AAS has cleared your system. Or at least started to (not the same day as a 600(!) mg injection)?[/quote]

I was under the same assumption but after talking with exp persons who have done this its seems that yes active aas does suppress some of the triptorelin but because its chemically different and its effects are above and beyond the capabilities of HCG it still jump starts the recovery process. Also why a follow up shot is used after esters have cleared. I will post what little research/studies there is on this when I get some time.

And yeah I feel you, meaning I want this to be as little “bro-science” as possible.

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:

So after 4 years of continuous AAS use I will be attempting a PCT with the end goal of a sustainable properly functioning system from balls to bone. A hormonal homeostasis if you will. On average per year 30 weeks have been “ON” at doses from (total compounds) ranging from 750mg to 3gr, the other 20 weeks were all TRT dosed at 200-300mg. I have taken pretty much everything but my staples for the most part are Test, Tren, Mast, EQ and more test. Oral staples are Drol, Tbol and Halo.

Blood work, libido and strength retention will be my guide to asses my level of recovery. Things like blood pressure, lipids etc will of coarse be signs of health as well.

Stats as of today: 230lbs with a very low 1700 raw total.

So for sure Im no doctor but having talked with my coach, other experienced long term users and research, this is my proposed PCT plan:

Day 1 (today): Last Test injection of 600mg, followed by 100mcg of Triptorelin.
Day 2-13 HCG: at 250ui’s a day. (Daily because I have not run HCG throughout the years, actually my last dosing was in december)
Day 14 & 15: Nolvadex at 40mg a day. Exactly 6 hours after Nolva dosed on day 15 when peak levels have been reached will be a second shot of Trip at 100mcg.
Day 16-30: Clomid 50mg a day/Nolva 20mg a day as well as CJC 1295 at 200mcg and GHRP-6 at 300mcg (at night time) daily.
Day 31: TB500 2mg shot all at once before bed.
Day 31-50: Fragment 176 at 500mg and IGF-1-LR3 at 60mcg daily post training.
Day 50: Full blood work up and possible third trip shot if needed.

Fat intake: Increased but nothing crazy

Adex: as needed as Im anticipating a fairly large estrogen rebound.

As you can see the protocol dosing is modest for two reasons. First, I want to give my body only the things it needs to recover not simply move from dependency of certain compounds to other compounds. Secondly and most important is if the first round of PCT does not work completely, I need to have somewhere to go with my dosing. I am saving actual HGH to add into a second PCT run if needed along with higher doses of compounds mentioned above.

As for myself i am stepping into a mystical puddle of virgin unicorn piss but hopefully this can help others in similar conditions. If nothing else we can see what works and what doesn’t. A big part of this especially in the strength category is going to be mental battle as well.
If any one has anything to add from experience or see a glaring discrepancy jump in as this is good info for all.

Hopefully in the end I can make a "Long time user PCT protocol " as a guide for others after I am done being a lab rat.[/quote]

This should be interesting. If a second poster on this forum restarts his HPTA fuction after a long time on, I am sold on really long cycles. Hoping everything turns out well for you.

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I could be wrong, but shouldn’t the trip be shot after the AAS has cleared your system. Or at least started to (not the same day as a 600(!) mg injection)?[/quote]

I was under the same assumption but after talking with exp persons who have done this its seems that yes active aas does suppress some of the triptorelin but because its chemically different and its effects are above and beyond the capabilities of HCG it still jump starts the recovery process. Also why a follow up shot is used after esters have cleared. I will post what little research/studies there is on this when I get some time.

And yeah I feel you, meaning I want this to be as little “bro-science” as possible. [/quote]

yeah the advice I heard about trip was the same; that it won’t work while there’s still suppressive amounts of AAS in the system.

So much about trip is broscience though so you never really know. I guess in a few weeks we’ll know for sure!

god luck mate

I would definetly hold out on the Triptorelin shot till ALL aas have cleared your system. In my HPTA restart I did not even need the Trip but considering you’ve been on for 4 years without hCG you MAY need it.

IMO you are making a mistake of going cold turkey, I would strongly suggest you taper off the test very gradually to give yourself the best chance of recovering any sort of natural test levels. I do not know your age but if its quite higher then mine you will most probably have a harder time recovering.

I would use the hCG in conjuction with a taper of test, maybe over a 8-10 week span adding in SERMS when your test drops to 100mg/wk.
I am talking from experience having tried the cold turkey approach to no avail. Consider this.
Any particular reason you cannot taper?

SB

Sing

I have a 10 dose trip vial so Im good there. I considered a test taper but do me it doesn’t make sense, even minimal amounts of aas shut down the body. So to me its just extending the suppression for a greater length. Im not saying it doesn’t work, just that it does not add up on paper to me. I talked with several experienced long term users that have had a successful PCT also stated that “on is on” at any amount and to just come off.

Im a bit confused on your recommendation as you said you didn’t need the trip shot but your HTPA restart didn’t work. Basically what Im getting is that maybe had you used the trip shot the cold turkey approach may have worked the first time?

The taper may not make sense on paper (although we use it in the medical industry everyday) but it sure does work. Bill Roberts suggested that around the 100mg/wk mark of Test in conjuction with a SERM there will be no HPTA suppression. Couple this with a split of 50/50 Test/Mast and you will be in an even better position.

Im not sure where you saw that my HPTA restart did not work popeye? My test taper worked, and damn well I must add. In the past I have come off moderate cycles (10weeks) cold turkey in conjuction with Trip and to be honest it has nothing on the taper. It genuinely just makes no sense that going from huge levels of a hormone to rock bottom will have no impact on the body.

So while sitting at 100mg/wk and gradually decreasing while running a SERM you are in fact avoiding the brick wall of coming off AND recovering the HPTA.
Will try to find the studies that show 100mg/wk = no suppression, dont have time at the moment as Im doing my medical finals :frowning:

SB

it was at the end when you said you “have tried the cold turkey to no avail”. I think I just misunderstood these were different completely separate PCT’s you were referring too.

I think the test taper would be more mainstream if we could actually test humans and publish on it. I agree with you about tapering being used in the med community every day. It makes sense to taper meds/drugs up and down but when it comes to aas tapering down is something I don’t fully comprehend or I am missing an integral part of knowledge about it.

That being said my only reason for coming off is to set clean PR’s and make progress naturally and jump right back on for much shorter periods of time. Its something that I need to do both physically and mentally. However if I had just decided to try and come off for good I probably would have cut my dosage down to the ranges you suggested for around 3 months before attempting a slow recovery PCT.

These two independent HTPA restart routes I would take for either condition are inherently confusing to myself as to why I would choose one this way, and one the other!

In the end test taper may in fact be the best way to go, as I do not believe Im going to stumble on the holy grail of PCT or anything.

Best of luck on the finals and stop in when you get a chance as I value you experience and input a great deal.

Popeye

Not sure if I understand but your taking a shot of 600mg test ( so probably long ester e/c) but then trip the next day? How come? Why not just shoot the trip once the test has tapered why did you go with the day after the 600mg of test?

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I could be wrong, but shouldn’t the trip be shot after the AAS has cleared your system. Or at least started to (not the same day as a 600(!) mg injection)?[/quote]

I was under the same assumption but after talking with exp persons who have done this its seems that yes active aas does suppress some of the triptorelin but because its chemically different and its effects are above and beyond the capabilities of HCG it still jump starts the recovery process. Also why a follow up shot is used after esters have cleared. I will post what little research/studies there is on this when I get some time.

And yeah I feel you, meaning I want this to be as little “bro-science” as possible. [/quote]

Heres why you should taper…

You’ve been on for four years, what difference does ten weeks make either way?

You need to let your body hold onto whatever strength it can with “normal” hormone levels. So cut the volume on your training because of recovery issues, but try and keep the same weights on the bar.

I personally would not use nolva anymore because of it’s toxicity, but I understand if you want to use it. You’ll get a better “kick” out of it if you dose 100mg the first day then just stay at 20mg. The higher dose is not better, I have a reference supporting that somewhere.

I would seriously consider aromasin as part of PCT. It has been shown to have an anabolic metabolite recently…

Eur J Intern Med. 2008 Dec;19(8):592-7.

As such, its about the only way I can think of of having any exogenous androgens in your system without supression. Aside from low dose masteron. (That could be a really interesting combination for a low supression cycle)

I would also shoot the trip at the end of the taper.

And as for the GHRP, I believe that the 300mg in one go is a waste, you’d be better off splitting that into three shots over the day, and will get much more of a result from it.

I’m really not sure if you should do a second shot of trip, or if its necessary. The stuff is used to sterilise people in higher doses.

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
The taper may not make sense on paper (although we use it in the medical industry everyday) but it sure does work. Bill Roberts suggested that around the 100mg/wk mark of Test in conjuction with a SERM there will be no HPTA suppression. Couple this with a split of 50/50 Test/Mast and you will be in an even better position.

Im not sure where you saw that my HPTA restart did not work popeye? My test taper worked, and damn well I must add. In the past I have come off moderate cycles (10weeks) cold turkey in conjuction with Trip and to be honest it has nothing on the taper. It genuinely just makes no sense that going from huge levels of a hormone to rock bottom will have no impact on the body.

So while sitting at 100mg/wk and gradually decreasing while running a SERM you are in fact avoiding the brick wall of coming off AND recovering the HPTA.
Will try to find the studies that show 100mg/wk = no suppression, dont have time at the moment as Im doing my medical finals :frowning:

SB [/quote]

Yeah SB! 2 years ahead of me!! Good luck dude!

On a serious note, I really think tapering is the best way to go about this, even if tapering down to like 300mg, but going from 600mg and 3 years of continuous use to none at all is not gonna feel great. at all.

Good luck Pop, keep us posted!

I too vouch for the taper. Well not really. I vouch for the 100mg STASIS. By taking 50 Test/50 Masteron weekly for 5-6 weeks, your body goes back to normal for everything, except for the HPTA. But that’s not bad, quite the opposite. You can then concentrate on that one fact after everything else is back to normal. And it seems our HPTA axis works like a dimmer, not an “on-pff” switch. At 100mg + SERMS you’re not off, but you do feel coming back to normal. I wouldn’t go off AAS cold turkey after 4 years.

[quote]tattoo’d’popeye wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I could be wrong, but shouldn’t the trip be shot after the AAS has cleared your system. Or at least started to (not the same day as a 600(!) mg injection)?[/quote]

I was under the same assumption but after talking with exp persons who have done this its seems that yes active aas does suppress some of the triptorelin but because its chemically different and its effects are above and beyond the capabilities of HCG it still jump starts the recovery process. Also why a follow up shot is used after esters have cleared. I will post what little research/studies there is on this when I get some time.

And yeah I feel you, meaning I want this to be as little “bro-science” as possible. [/quote]

Hows the restart going?

Bump