T Nation

Police Checkpoints

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
JD430 wrote:
pat wrote:

Would you like it if the cops could pull you over all the time with out any cause? This is what road blocks do…It is a contradiction in the law. I am pretty sure this would not hold up in the Supreme Court.

I believe it has. I can’t remember the case.

There are guidelines that need to be followed such as randomizing the stops or stopping every single car that comes through a checkpoint(ie. you can’t cherry pick certain cars for whatever reason). If the guidelines are followed, SCOTUS allowed for these checkpoints. If I remember correctly, the decision essentially said that stopping a car absent probable cause(for an MV stop) at a checkpoint was a violation of the 4th amendment, but public safety interests in removing impaired drivers allowed for it.

I think that is crazy and it shows how dangerous concerns about “public safety” can be in the wrong hands. What is even better is some towns use these roadblocks to issue scores of minor tickets too…like not having a registration card in your car or not wearing your seatbelt.

How do you think the state makes money? Do you think money is made when a rapist or child molester gets locked up? Nope. But how much money is made from seat belt tickets, no registration, speeding, and basic traffic violations? Tons.

You are correct about SCOTUS, but you show how the problem can be so easily circumvented. All that is needed is probable cause, which can be obtained from nearly anything. If you are swerving while you drive, seeming nervous during questioning, just about anything can be interpreted as probable cause. [/quote]

I like the new trend of mailing people tickets for cars parked on roads with out dated stickers or no insurance. Regardless of the fact that the person may not even drive the car, if the car is even operable, ect.

philly pa. is great for sending you tickets,and you’ve NEVER even been in that city.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

How do you think the state makes money? Do you think money is made when a rapist or child molester gets locked up? Nope. But how much money is made from seat belt tickets, no registration, speeding, and basic traffic violations? Tons.[/quote]

I can’t imagine a police checkpoint makes money. I’ve never seen less than 4 officers at any one stop, and the whole goal is to jail drunk drivers and 4 cops to issue a seat belt citation can’t be near as profitable as 1.

The state makes money every other week, the same as I do. It’s there in black and white at the top of my paystub.

And I’m no fan of the Police checkpoints, but I find that many forget that driving is not a right.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
MaximusB wrote:

How do you think the state makes money? Do you think money is made when a rapist or child molester gets locked up? Nope. But how much money is made from seat belt tickets, no registration, speeding, and basic traffic violations? Tons.

I can’t imagine a police checkpoint makes money. I’ve never seen less than 4 officers at any one stop, and the whole goal is to jail drunk drivers and 4 cops to issue a seat belt citation can’t be near as profitable as 1.

The state makes money every other week, the same as I do. It’s there in black and white at the top of my paystub.

And I’m no fan of the Police checkpoints, but I find that many forget that driving is not a right.[/quote]

I find that many forget that being a cop is not either and that it can be revoked with a bullet.

Just saying that a discussion of what is and is not a right is a slippery slope and that if people really start to get pissed policemen usually are in a very bad position.

See pre revolutionary Paris for details. There must have been kids who actually thought that police men belong on light posts, swinging in the wind.

So maybe it would be better to accept that if your souvereign wants to practice his right to drive the car he bought on the road he paid for he better be not molested by people who are also paid by him.

[quote]orion wrote:
And I’m no fan of the Police checkpoints, but I find that many forget that driving is not a right.

I find that many forget that being a cop is not either and that it can be revoked with a bullet.

Just saying that a discussion of what is and is not a right is a slippery slope and that if people really start to get pissed policemen usually are in a very bad position.

See pre revolutionary Paris for details. There must have been kids who actually thought that police men belong on light posts, swinging in the wind.

So maybe it would be better to accept that if your souvereign wants to practice his right to drive the car he bought on the road he paid for he better be not molested by people who are also paid by him.

[/quote]

I understand that the police represent the establishment to those who fantasize that we live in a police state, but the reality is that those guys are doing what they are told to do. Let’s take a step into the actualized world and comprehend that you may think “doing what they are told to do” is criminal, but a police force does not work if the men and women policing spend every minute questioning their boss. If we have a problem with enforcement of laws, and trampling of rights, it needs to be addressed from the top down, not from the bottom up with threats of bullets and hangings.

Cops spend 99% of their time dealing with shit on a daily basis (sometimes literally) that we would rather just pretend didn’t exist, so I personally choose to cut them a little slack. Of course checkpoints are a violation and need to be abolished, but it’s just plain silly to say it should be a fear of uprising that gets it done. If you have a problem, then follow the real political process and write letters, get signatures, vote and actually accomplish something.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Accox, if you are seen avoiding a police checkpoint, that is enough probably cause to allow police to inspect your car. Like it or not, I have seen many guys who fell victim to this.

If you mean “search” by inspect, that is not true. The 4th amendment still applies and there has to be probable cause or consent to search the car. However, you can be stopped simply for attempting to avoid a police checkpoint.

For the record, I don’t like them in the least and think they should be outlawed.[/quote]

If I drive through and am stopped, what is the best language to use that will keep me from being violated? I’m assuming banging the steering wheel and screaming “I KNOW MAH RIGHTS!!” isn’t the best bet.

Let’s assume I have had zero to drink, and have outwardly broken no laws, but am asked to step out of the vehicle. What should be said? I have been told that as your car is your private property or, sovereign territory so to speak, I can only be forced to get out if placed under arrest, or been told exactly what law I’ve violated.

[quote]dtheyer wrote:
If you aren’t drunk, what’s the big deal?[/quote]

My time is precious to me. I don’t wish to waste it playing nice with shitbag coppers.

[quote]borrek wrote:
I understand that the police represent the establishment to those who fantasize that we live in a police state, but the reality is that those guys are doing what they are told to do. [/quote]

How is this a legitimate excuse?

“Oh, I am sorry I murdered those innocent people with these bombs, I was just following orders.”

People who willing take orders to harass other people should be burned alive.

[quote]borrek wrote:
JD430 wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Accox, if you are seen avoiding a police checkpoint, that is enough probably cause to allow police to inspect your car. Like it or not, I have seen many guys who fell victim to this.

If you mean “search” by inspect, that is not true. The 4th amendment still applies and there has to be probable cause or consent to search the car. However, you can be stopped simply for attempting to avoid a police checkpoint.

For the record, I don’t like them in the least and think they should be outlawed.

If I drive through and am stopped, what is the best language to use that will keep me from being violated? I’m assuming banging the steering wheel and screaming “I KNOW MAH RIGHTS!!” isn’t the best bet.

Let’s assume I have had zero to drink, and have outwardly broken no laws, but am asked to step out of the vehicle. What should be said? I have been told that as your car is your private property or, sovereign territory so to speak, I can only be forced to get out if placed under arrest, or been told exactly what law I’ve violated.[/quote]

Be polite. State one time convincingly that you had nothing to drink but don’t harp on it.

Other than that, I don’t know what to tell you. Your car is certainly not sovereign territory. You actually have a greatly diminished expectation of privacy in your car. In my state, the operator of a a lawfully stopped vehicle can be ordered to get out at any point in time. The police don’t even need a reason. Not complying with that will get you arrested. That is one thing I am not sure about state-to-state so I would check if I were you.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
dtheyer wrote:
If you aren’t drunk, what’s the big deal?

My time is precious to me. I don’t wish to waste it playing nice with shitbag coppers.[/quote]

LOL… how many times have you been stopped at a checkpoint???

In my life of driving I have never been pulled over… hmm

[quote]dtheyer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
dtheyer wrote:
If you aren’t drunk, what’s the big deal?

My time is precious to me. I don’t wish to waste it playing nice with shitbag coppers.

LOL… how many times have you been stopped at a checkpoint???

In my life of driving I have never been pulled over… hmm[/quote]

Well you just jinxed your self…That or you drive like an elderly woman.

[quote]dtheyer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
dtheyer wrote:
If you aren’t drunk, what’s the big deal?

My time is precious to me. I don’t wish to waste it playing nice with shitbag coppers.

LOL… how many times have you been stopped at a checkpoint???

In my life of driving I have never been pulled over… hmm[/quote]

None yet, because I avoid them…and I’d like to keep it that way.

To speed getting through these things, I suggest telling the officer you saw the guy in the car behind reach for something in his glove compartment and then stuff something under his seat. They’ll pass you through quickly to get to him.

[quote]borrek wrote:
JD430 wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Accox, if you are seen avoiding a police checkpoint, that is enough probably cause to allow police to inspect your car. Like it or not, I have seen many guys who fell victim to this.

If you mean “search” by inspect, that is not true. The 4th amendment still applies and there has to be probable cause or consent to search the car. However, you can be stopped simply for attempting to avoid a police checkpoint.

For the record, I don’t like them in the least and think they should be outlawed.

If I drive through and am stopped, what is the best language to use that will keep me from being violated? I’m assuming banging the steering wheel and screaming “I KNOW MAH RIGHTS!!” isn’t the best bet.

Let’s assume I have had zero to drink, and have outwardly broken no laws, but am asked to step out of the vehicle. What should be said? I have been told that as your car is your private property or, sovereign territory so to speak, I can only be forced to get out if placed under arrest, or been told exactly what law I’ve violated.[/quote]

If this very situation happened, I would ask the cop does he have probable cause, and if so what is it? You can also ask to have this commanding officer come to the scene for an explanation as to why you are being searched, which will not win you brownie points with the cop who pulled you over. You can also sue the police dept. for a violation of your 4th amendment rights, to which I wish you luck.

With things like the Patriot Act, the advantage sides with the government heavily.

[quote]dtheyer wrote:
If you aren’t drunk, what’s the big deal? [/quote]

Yes, yes…the argument otherwise known as “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear”.

Ever heard of false dichotomy?

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
JD430 wrote:
pat wrote:

Would you like it if the cops could pull you over all the time with out any cause? This is what road blocks do…It is a contradiction in the law. I am pretty sure this would not hold up in the Supreme Court.

I believe it has. I can’t remember the case.

There are guidelines that need to be followed such as randomizing the stops or stopping every single car that comes through a checkpoint(ie. you can’t cherry pick certain cars for whatever reason). If the guidelines are followed, SCOTUS allowed for these checkpoints. If I remember correctly, the decision essentially said that stopping a car absent probable cause(for an MV stop) at a checkpoint was a violation of the 4th amendment, but public safety interests in removing impaired drivers allowed for it.

I think that is crazy and it shows how dangerous concerns about “public safety” can be in the wrong hands. What is even better is some towns use these roadblocks to issue scores of minor tickets too…like not having a registration card in your car or not wearing your seatbelt.

How do you think the state makes money? Do you think money is made when a rapist or child molester gets locked up? Nope. But how much money is made from seat belt tickets, no registration, speeding, and basic traffic violations? Tons.

You are correct about SCOTUS, but you show how the problem can be so easily circumvented. All that is needed is probable cause, which can be obtained from nearly anything. If you are swerving while you drive, seeming nervous during questioning, just about anything can be interpreted as probable cause.

I like the new trend of mailing people tickets for cars parked on roads with out dated stickers or no insurance. Regardless of the fact that the person may not even drive the car, if the car is even operable, ect.[/quote]

This is worse than what I recently encountered while abroad. Last year I went to Italy to see family, and I rented a car and drove all over. About 2 weeks ago, I receive 3 different tickets, all time-stamped within 10 minutes of each other, each costing 110 Euros. I look online to see about this madness, and come to find out that this is a scam by the government. People are getting tickets mailed to them 1 year, and even 2 years after the alleged incident.

Can you imagine getting some citation in the mail 2 years later? I call up the customer service number and start my bitching, little did they know that I was not some American tourist, as about 4-5 “va fan culos” (go fuck yourself) came out.) I let them know I wasnt paying shit and if they want my money, they can fly to Los Angeles to come get it.

I know this isn’t the same situation, but it goes to show you the level some people or governments will go to. I call it the perfect scam, to charge a foreigner money from 10,000 miles away.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
What is even better is some towns use these roadblocks to issue scores of minor tickets too…like not having a registration card in your car or not wearing your seatbelt.[/quote]

That actually happened to me at a “checkpoint”. 70 damn dollars for not having my seatbelt on. It all comes down to raking in $$$ for the city.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:This is worse than what I recently encountered while abroad. Last year I went to Italy to see family, and I rented a car and drove all over. About 2 weeks ago, I receive 3 different tickets, all time-stamped within 10 minutes of each other, each costing 110 Euros. I look online to see about this madness, and come to find out that this is a scam by the government. People are getting tickets mailed to them 1 year, and even 2 years after the alleged incident.

Can you imagine getting some citation in the mail 2 years later? I call up the customer service number and start my bitching, little did they know that I was not some American tourist, as about 4-5 “va fan culos” (go fuck yourself) came out.) I let them know I wasnt paying shit and if they want my money, they can fly to Los Angeles to come get it.

I know this isn’t the same situation, but it goes to show you the level some people or governments will go to. I call it the perfect scam, to charge a foreigner money from 10,000 miles away. [/quote]

…trouble is though that you could get flagged for outstanding fines and when you enter Italy next time you have to pay…

[quote]borrek wrote:
orion wrote:
And I’m no fan of the Police checkpoints, but I find that many forget that driving is not a right.

I find that many forget that being a cop is not either and that it can be revoked with a bullet.

Just saying that a discussion of what is and is not a right is a slippery slope and that if people really start to get pissed policemen usually are in a very bad position.

See pre revolutionary Paris for details. There must have been kids who actually thought that police men belong on light posts, swinging in the wind.

So maybe it would be better to accept that if your souvereign wants to practice his right to drive the car he bought on the road he paid for he better be not molested by people who are also paid by him.

I understand that the police represent the establishment to those who fantasize that we live in a police state, but the reality is that those guys are doing what they are told to do. Let’s take a step into the actualized world and comprehend that you may think “doing what they are told to do” is criminal, but a police force does not work if the men and women policing spend every minute questioning their boss. If we have a problem with enforcement of laws, and trampling of rights, it needs to be addressed from the top down, not from the bottom up with threats of bullets and hangings.

Cops spend 99% of their time dealing with shit on a daily basis (sometimes literally) that we would rather just pretend didn’t exist, so I personally choose to cut them a little slack. Of course checkpoints are a violation and need to be abolished, but it’s just plain silly to say it should be a fear of uprising that gets it done. If you have a problem, then follow the real political process and write letters, get signatures, vote and actually accomplish something.[/quote]

Yeah, sure-

I have a very distinct feeling what they do with such petitions.

I am pretty sure that pointing out the mockery of justice most of todays laws are and the utter contempt most politicians deserve serves my goals much better.

This shit will never end by writing petitions, this shit will end when people have enough.

In this case for example maybe someone somewhere will not let the police search his car for BS reasons. The second the people behind him get out of the car and get out their torches and pitchforks all you will see is a police car speeding in the other direction.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
The probable cause to stop a motor vehicle is totally separate from the probable cause needed to physically go inside a car and search it. There are exceptions to the warrant requirement with motor vehicles such as “plain sight” and “plain smell”(seeing or smelling evidence of criminal activity while observing the vehicle from the outside) as well as search incident to an arrest. Even these are being restricted in states like New Jersey(where I work). You can also always give consent to the police to look in your car. Those are the boundaries of the 4th amendment in regards to motor vehicles.

Could the police become agitated and wrongly think that an attempt to avoid a checkpoint is grounds to search a car by itself…I guess. Then they would have to “write” themselves out of the legalistic mess they created, maybe even by stretching the truth. Of course that’s bullshit and I would have no part of it but it could happen.

Let me assure you guys though, that on a level playing field and following Constitutional mandates, it doesn’t work that way.

I’ve been at this for a while. [/quote]

We will soon see how that 4th works in NY. The police set up check points for every motorcycle run and make all motorcycles pull in and check them out. I had friends go to americade and were stopped for 2 hours at a police checkpoint. What is the point I have to have my bike inspected just like cars do I wear a helmet so what do you need to look at?

The Blue Knights which are cops had a ride a few weeks ago and they only had 10 people show up since everyone is sick of getting stopped.

The best part is a few weeks ago I was at a car/bike show and they checked all the motorcycles for sound but never once did they check a car and I am not talking about your honda civic they were all older muscle cars with stright pipes and nothing was said to any owner of a car just wanted to mess with the riders.