T Nation

Please Enlighten Me...Not Steroids?



I am a 37 year old male, so therefore I often come to this section of the Forum (The Over 35 Lifter) to learn more about issues that may relate to me. However, it seems more and more lately that many of the threads seem to be related to something about controlling Testosterone for some reason or another.

Now here's my dumbass question: why aren't these T related issues posted in the 'Steroids' forum?

I realize a handful of these types of threads actually discuss controlling Estrogen.

I acknowledge my ignorance on the topic; this is just an observation.



Been down that road before, This forum was lost for a while.

Personally I think the TRT threads are very informative, as that is what they are refering to Testosterone Replacement Therapy for the older crowd.

And not really belonging in the Steroid forum that mostly refers to cycles alternative choices in gear, not prolonged TRT which is pretty limited to Test and AI's.


The question is valid, in that I would guess the majority of folks in America might wonder the same thing.
Testosterone (T) replacement therapy, when given to men whose T levels are deficient, is really just good medicine for an endocrince illness. No different in principle than treating hypothyroidism, or diabetes for that matter.
Problems arise from several sources. The first is the fact that the medicine involved, T, is a steroid, and yes this steroid is abused by many, and as a result hated by the AMA/DEA conglomerate who looks at T replacement therapy as fundamentally no different than steroid abuse. Dead wrong, but the sad truth.
You can read on the Steroid thread that BB's and other athletes use the medicines to treat those two conditions I mentioned above as well, thyroid pills and insulin. Yet interestingly there is not the public and governmental outcry against this abuse of substances either. T is their target.
Other problems arise because some men choose to take T even if their T levels are only slightly low but in "normal range." However, if they are symptomatic, such as having sexual dysfunction or treatment resistant depression, the T replacement can be a wonder drug for them.
I doubt many men in this section take T just to become more muscular. If they do, they are more likely to use far more than T replacement dosages, and probably "stack" on other anabolics as the "gear" users do in the steroids section.
Having said all of that, I have bemoaned on my thread that us older folks need a broader depth of topics in this section. But there are some good threads going, many of which have nothing to do with T replacement therapy. But T management, as a whole, is something EVERY older man should come to terms with, because we lose about 2% of our T every year starting at 30, and more than that if we are exposed to any chronic T robbers, such as high stress, phytoestrogens, sleep deprivation, and many, many more. Doc



I appreciate your explanation. With that though, I have a few questions:

What are the typical indications that a 30+ male has low T?

How would I go about testing my level? I have a typical HMO, so I would suspect I would need to talk my primary care physician into ordering the blood work.

I guess if push came to shove, I could pay out of pocket.

Thanks for the feedback-



The Steroid section is a little more intense than our discussions here. We basically want to have high-normal test with E2 under control.

There is quite a difference between 150 mg/week of Cyp, with an AI, as opposed to a 12 week cycle, with 4 weeks of DBol at the beginning to kick start your gains, followed by PCT.

Also, I post here because I am a layman with 3.5 years of TRT experience. If my experiences can help someone else avoid the insanity within TRT, then I like that. Guys like KSMan are the experts, I'm the 'lab rat'. ;D


Low-T indicators would be moodiness, low energy levels, low sex drive, brain fog, loss of muscle and strength, fat gain, and a general shitty outlook on life and the future.

To get your levels tested you need to simply as your doc for a blood panel. Be sure to tell them you want a full hormone profile otherwise they will only give you your test level in many cases if that's all you request. You want to know TSH, estrodial, test and free test level, to name an important few.

For many guys a high quality natural test booster like Alpha Male will help greatly. For others actual TRT is needed.




ADAM test to identify low testosterone


  1. Have you experienced a decrease in your sex drive (libido)?

    1. Do you lack energy?

    2. Have you lost height?

    3. Has your strength and/or endurance decreased?

    4. Have you noticed yourself enjoying life less?

    5. Are you frequently sad or irritable?

    6. Are your erections less strong?

    7. Have you noticed a recent deterioration in your athletic ability?

    8. Do you find yourself falling asleep after dinner?

    9. Has there been a recent deterioration in your work performance?


Not meaning to incite an arguement, but I've personally been wondering if I have Low T also or if it's just something "natural."

Most of these "symptoms" (like drop in athletic ability, for example) can simply be from aging, right? How do we determine if it's a "natural" drop or if it's a "low T" Drop.




I've read that 2% figure before. Is it an estimate based on a large study, perhaps an average based on data.

I don't see an overriding physiological reason for men to produce less T only possible 'wear' and thus less efficiency in the endocrine system and testes.

Another thing that is interesting is homeostasis. If for a 25 year old that results in, say arbitrarily, 1000 units of T then why is the same system 'settling' for a few hundred 25 years later? Or is it infact trying to keep up but thanks to ineficiencies in the body it just can't.

In a man in prime health there should be no 'inevitable' reason for reduced T, unless there really is some programmed unavoidable ageing process wherein even the fittest, undamaged, stress free man simply loses T anyway, despite there being no outward reason, except i suppose the baseline wear and tear of just being alive. Maybe that's it.

It all seems depressing whatever it is. Accepting T loss as 'natural' would be like not bothering with opticians because eyesight degradation is 'natural'.

You've got me thinking on all this as i'm 36 so it's all good planning for the future!


What's "natural" is to waste away and die. Lower testosterone and higher estradiol is part of that "natural" process. If you're Ok with all the of the problems associated with low T and high E because they are part of the natural aging process, then that's certainly your right and there are a lot of doctors that share the same philosophy.

Personally, I say fuck natural. I like feeling good, being muscular and having a strong libido and the ability to indulge it. Most people bitch about the problems associated with getting older. Some of us choose to do something about it. It's your choice.


Speaking personally, TRT has helped me greatly, but has not turned back the clock for everything. TRT can do a lot and I would highly encourage anyone with symptoms to look into it, but it is not exactly like you'll be 18 again.


Happydog, I appreciate your info.. I agree with you 100%. I want to continue playing sports and lifting at the same pace I was able to do in my 30's. I understand that with aging there will be some slowdown, but from my own standpoint I'm seeing a big drop in performance, libido and attitude at 43.

I'm new to this forum, but in researching the symptoms of low test and some of the posts in this and other forums I feel like I'm experiencing some of the telltale signs. I'm definitely going to start the discussions with my Dr.


You may not look like you're 18 again, but when you can service your woman like you're 18 again (from HRT/TRT), who cares, right? If you get your T:E ratio right for you, along with an AI, and HCG, you'll forget you're not 18 again...


You don't even have to do that. Order a mail order kit for testing testosterone through a simple saliva test at home. They cost about $30 and are actually more accurate than what the Dr will run in his lab. (You mail in the sample and they send you results. Do a simple search for "saliva testosterone testing" in any search engine and you'll find several) Saliva tests for "free", circulating testosterone and not total test that is locked up in anatomical structures. Much more important to bodybuilders.

Good luck.


I "second" that KNB!


If you use steroids to restore health and vitality, then they are medicinal. If you use steroids because you want to look jacked for your broze (bros?), then you are using steroids for vanity and egotistical reasons.

Now, there's nothing wrong with either of those, but in this section we discuss how to use steroids medicinally.

Note: I love steroids passionately. If I wasn't already happily married, I'd marry Dbol. ;D


Doc, it is my understanding that the saliva test is much less accurate than blood serum tests. Am this incorrect? or is testing saliva only marginally less accurate?



Saliva testing is less accurate, and also provides different values and ranges making it slightly harder to guide treatment. I cant say with certainty how much less accurate it is, but think about it, if it was close, hospitals all over the country would turn en masse to using it because it is cheaper and easier to obtain.    

Having said that, and having recently understood the meaning of poverty, if its all you afford, its still good enough to guide treatment.                          Doc


What about low T is not natural? You questions are a bit wrong.

Many of the symptoms of aging are from decline of hormones and restoration of hormones can eliminate many of the problems of aging.

Loss of T levels can be from aging processes of the HPTA (look it up), and also often from cancers that effect the pituitary or from a blow to the head or whip lash. Some have damage to the testes or structural problems such as veins that stop working properly.


I suffered a blow to the head --- the girl was very nearsighted! ;D

I have had whiplash and was hit by a car pretty badly years ago. Who knows what causes all this...