T Nation

Please critique my cutting plan

OK folks. I am coming off of a six-month layoff that has been very bad on my waistline. Right now, I am at 225 with a 46 inch waist at 5’10". Here’s what I’m planning to do:


Starting with 6 weeks of T-Dawg and the Beginner Blastoff Program to get back in the swing of things (using leftover Xenadrine preworkout). After that, I’m doing 6 weeks of Fat Fast and 5x5 (using MD6, Methoxy and T2-Pro). This will be followed by 3 weeks of T-Dawg and Meltdown (using the Methoxy/T2-Pro stack for the first week). This will be followed by three weeks of Fat Fast with 5x5 (using MD6, T2-Pro, 4-AD-EC for the first two weeks, and Methoxy for the last week). I am hoping that these 18 weeks will get me to 180 lbs. Throughout the program, I will use a multivitamin, a fiber supplement as needed, and BCAA/Glutamine pre- and post-workout. I must say that I respond well to keto diets, so I am looking forward to this cycle. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated, especially from those who have been there.

I would strongly suggest using a pro hormone throughout the entire fat fast experience. Anything less, even methoxy will lead to too much muscle wasting. Also try using a whole food fat fast rather than shakes. A search will give you many many reasons why this is better.
:slight_smile: Groove

Hi, JK. I know what it is to be HIGHLY motivated. I didn’t pick your particular path, but I tried punishing myself for being out of shape by doing 2 hours of cardio per day, cutting calories to 1,000 per day, and doing an hour and a half of weights 5 days a week. Other than that, 'bout the only thing I had energy enough for way lying on the couch.



Okay. You’ve got a backup plan. If I’m not popping your bubble, could I recommend a sensible alternative? Go ahead and start T-Dawg as planned. Just the fact that you’re cutting your carbs will give you some very nice weight loss the first two weeks. Also, keep a food log and put all of your energy and motivation into strictly following the diet and keeping a food log. Wait for two weeks before you start any carb refeeds; your body needs to make a metabolic shift to being a fat burner from being a sugar burner. You’ll need to make some adjustments as far as your caloric intake is concerned. Most everybody does. But you should be talking subtle changes and adjustments, not major ones.



Your goal is to lose no more than two pounds per week. Don’t worry about the first two weeks. They don’t count. In fact, you could easily lose 10 pounds the first two weeks. But after the first two weeks if you’re losing more than two pounds a week, you need to increase your calories.



As far as supplements go, the MD6 and T2-Pro look good. Save the 4 AD-EC for later, either for bulking or a for drastic reduction in calories if it comes to that, but I don’t think it will. I’d also recommend that you read up on and incorporate Surge into your program. Go ahead and skip the glutamine. There’s some doubt that, based on recent research that it’s effective at protecting LBM. Surge will do a better job of protecting LBM. Re the BCAAs, if you want to, go ahead and use them pre- and post-workout. Other than that, all you need is a good MRP like Low-Carb Grow for emergencies, and I would strongly recommend a combination of high-dose fish oil and flaxseed oil. Do a search through the forum and the article archives, both.



Re the workouts, I’d try all of them. Change out you program once every four to six weeks. The second time around, indulge yourself and only rotate through those programs you enjoyed or that you feel benefited you.



You’re not going to hit a wall on T-Dawg, JK. And if you don’t hit a wall, there’s no need to go to extreme measures. You can actually work towards your goals, drop BF, work out and have energy and quality of life.



I really do wish you all the best. And if you have any questions, please feel free to post them here.

Nice post TT.


I just wanted to add my 10 cents.:slight_smile:

  1. Workout: The workout schedule planned (regular switching of some proven fat-loss workouts) will be great for continued progress. Good idea.
  2. The diet: In my opinion I would stick with the T-Dawg for a while. From feedback so far on T-Mag it works good, and is a very tolerable diet wrt carb restrictions. There is no reason progress should not continue beyond the 6-week initial time frame you propose. If it does, you can/should try tweaking slightly before switching to a new diet altogether. Please don’t try to lose a lot of weight quickly. 2-3lbs maximum is about the most you can go with safely for QUALITY results. Why push yourself too much? Do you have a competition to get to or something?


    Be patient and you will be rewarded. Steady progress is better than lots then none.

  3. I have to disagree with G_T on this one. Provided your protein intake is adequate in quality and quantity, there is no particular reason for adding in the pro-steroids initially. The fat burners should be great for that extra boost (if you need it), but don’t go overboard.


    Why not rethink your plan somewhat (which I agree sounds extremely motivated, and that you’ve done your homework), and then get back to us with the revised article?


    We will of course then be looking for updates every few weeks, to make sure everything is going swingingly, and keep us nosey forumites happy! :slight_smile:


    Hope this helps. SRS

SRS I have no problem with the fact that you are disagreeing with me, in fact I find it very helpful if people correct me when I am wrong, however I would request that you really read my post beofre disagreeing with me. The reason I am saying this is because I was very clear in stating that if he is going to be doing the FAT FAST then he should use a prohormone throughout the FAT FAST. If you have read the fat fast articles that was the recommendation given by Brock and having actualy acheived some success with the fat fast myself and having used 4 AD EC throughout I can attest that it does work. On the fat fast he would be eating anywhere from thirteen to fourteen hundred calories a day. That gives about 165 to 175 grams of protein per day and for someone who is 225 pounds that is not an adequate amount of protein.
It seems to be common knowledge on the forum and for anyone whos tried the fat fast that you need a prohormone or else you WILL lose a lot of muscle. Periode. I don;t know how you could debate this but I would be interested to hear from you again on this now that my original post is maybe a little clearer.
:slight_smile: Groove

Hey guys, thanks for the advice thus far. I really appreciate it. Just to clear some things up:


As far as using Methoxy during my FF, I was under the impression that this might be plausible, as I am coming down from an elevated BF% (this is why I thought it would be a good idea to use 4-AD on the second FF, when I am leaner). I have also seen previous posters doing FF with a stack of Methoxy and Tribex (in countries where you can’t get prohormones). As I am in the USA, I have all of these options open to me.


As far as the rest of the plan goes, I don’t have any type of competition coming up, but I was hoping to put max effort in now that I have the time (only at school part-time now) and trim down for summer. I should have mentioned that I have already started the program: I am starting Week 2. I hope to be at 215 by the end of Week 6. I might consider sticking with T-Dawg a little longer, but I’d definitely want to switch up my training. I’ll have to give it some thought.
Oh, and I gotta tell you guys, this glutamine and BCAA has worked well for me. It’s a mix I got from proteinfactory, a 33/33/33 split between glutamine peptides, BCAA, and whey. I have 1/2 a scoop (about 25g) before training and another 1/2 scoop afterwards. I tried one workout without it as an experiment, and the DOMS was awful. With it, I have hardly any DOMS. However, when I’m done with this stash, I’m definitely giving Surge a try. Thanks again for taking the time to give some advice. I will post again when I have developed a Plan B.

 While much has been said of the 5 by 5 while cutting, I doubt it's your best layout. 

I would do sets of 10-12. These will burn more calories, and use more slow twitch fibers. While everyone’s got a highschool crush on high twitch fibers there’s a fatal difference betweent the two that renders high twitch less effective when trimming.


—> Low twitch fibers, or type I muscle fibers are very oxidative, and dont need glycogen stores for energy. Oxidation is the process through which the body burns fat. No oxidation, no fat burn.


—> With fast twitch fibers you have two subtypes: type IIa, and type IIb. ->type IIa have good oxidative capacity as well as well as good glycogen storage and use capability, which renders them effective enough at burning fat - but only enough. ->type IIb have no oxidative capacity whatsoever. They rely exclusively on glycogen stores for energy. These muscle fibers will not burn fat.


Since your goal is to trim down I would seriously recommend you target your slow twitch fibers primarily. You do this by doing high rep sets with slightly lighter weights.
A possible scenario is you are mostly fast twitch. If this is the case, you will still need to do high reps with lighter weight. What will happen is your type IIb will develop oxidative capability by building mytochondria - in short type IIb will turn into type IIa through endurance type training.


Anything wil burn calories. The point is to target the fibers that actually have the capability to burn fat, and the faster the better (and slow twitch fibers are the masters at this). Not the ones that dont have that capabilty. Am I making any sense here?


Just before I stop rambling here, let me just say this. There is a time and place for everything. Just as slow twitch fibers, which rquire higher reps to reach fatigue, are good at burning that fat, fast twitch fibers, particularly type IIb, are the best fibers to target for building muscle. You can’t gain size with the slow twitch, and you cant trim down with the fast twitch. My point being, once you’re through with trimming down, get back to strengh training to really target those fast twitch fibers and induce some serious grouwth. Good Luck!

You might consider a month of pure compounds and a basic diet prior to this fat-siege. Might allow you to ease into it mentally. I never jump into any program “cold,” so to speak.

I don’t know if there was a miscommunication somewhere, but I have to agree with Groove. Any undertaking of the Fat Fast should most definitely go along with a good prohormone. That said, I am not a big fan of the Fat Fast.

Believe me JK…I know what it’s like to be in that “panic state” and want to melt that fat away as quickly as possible. In my earlier keto days, I blew many a carb-up, and then to compensate (or overcompensate) I would basically do the Fat Fast w. nothing but shakes and flax oil, not to mention excessive cardio. The end result: I lost muscle, strength and energy, and I still ended up blowing it on the carb-ups.

My suggestion would be to ease your way into things. The old saying is true, “Rome wasn’t built in a day.” And if you’re absolutely set on Fat Fasting, I would save it for the final stretch instead of doing two cycles of it. If you haven’t done T-Dawg, you’ll be surprised at how far this will get you to your goal if you give yourself a realistic time frame to get there. Combined with something like Meltdown will really get things going for you.

BTW, I too did well with BCAA’s and glutamine. I used ICE by Xtreme Formulations pre/during workout, and post-workout I hit 40 g. whey isolate w. 40-50 g. glutamine (got this from Coach Poliquin and Don Alessi) until bodyfat got respectable, then I switched to Surge.

Best of luck!

Well G_T, (and Monty), I would love to argue :-), however you’re right, I did misread your post (i.e. the words “fat fast” before “experience”. It was my enthusiasm to post my opinion that was to blame. I am fine with the Pro-hormone on Fat Fast regime, if JK were to take that route. My comment referred to if JK were starting off with T-Dawg, and sticking to it for a while.


I have not done, nor know many people (personally) who have used fat fast, so in comparison to you I am in no place to comment. However it does sound logical with this low level of protein to try to preserve muscle mass with PH’s.


By the way, why wouldn’t JK be OK using Methoxy with Fat Fast? It seems to be a fairly good LBM retainer as well as helping w lipolysis.

To Diesel- you seem to be talking a lot of sense. I do agree that perhaps rep ranges in the region of 8-12 would be better , but not for the reasons you suggest. Instead, I think it will help achieve the optimal hormonal and stress response required here. I am of the opinion that with a good INTENSIVE training program, short rest periods, then it is the stimulation of hormonal and metabolic processes initiated during, and continued AFTER the training that is helping with the fat loss, not the burning of fat during the exercise itself. Therefore the type of Fibre stimulation becomes less of an issue. Do you msee my point? Would be interesting to hear your views on this.

To Poohbaya: Woops, he’s already started! :-). However, in terms of your advice, don’t you think JK’s gonna be ok with the regime suggested? - T-Dawg isn’t that difficult to adhere to, and he IS using a basics program to start it all off with the Beginner’s Blast- Off. You’ve got to start somewhere- JK’s had plenty of time already on a basic diet, right?


SRS

The reason that I don’t think methoxy will do it for the fat fast is just because the calories are so low and it isn’t powerful enough. I responded really well to 4 AD by actually gaining about 7 pounds of muscle in a month and concurently losing about 7 percent BF. That is why I give it such a good rcommendation. And living in america as he does I don;t know why he wouldn;t take advantage of being able to get PH. In my opinion the best use for methoxy is after a Mag-10 cycle to help hold onto gains. I wish I could get pro hormones here it would make my cutting a lot easier and as it is right now it is PAINFULLY slow.


Concerning the other thread(post work out drink) what exactley did you mean. I don;t want to misinterpret it anymore and get the wrong idea about you.


:slight_smile: groove

Stick w/ T-Dawg for a while. Fat fast is VERY DIFFICULT to stick to, and you’ll need to use Mag-10 or something so that you can keep your muscle mass.

You didn't gain weight overnight, so give yourself at least a year. Try to turn this into a lifestyle rather than a diet. You're trying to lose 2.5lb/week, and it may not be reasonable to lose that much consistently over 18 weeks.

There are 52 weeks in a year. It should give you plenty of time to experiment and readjust your diet and workout as you get used to the new lifestyle.

I was very impatient also, and did something very similar to what Tampa-Terry did. I ate 950 cal or less a day, weight trained 1 hr/day and ran 1 hr/day every day except Sunday. I didn't do any carb up and what not. Tampa-Terry said she just didn't have energy to do anything else. I was less fortunate. My body decided to punish me back. I got sick -- fever, constant vomitting, inability to eat or drink anything, muscle ache, joint ache, headache, hypothermia (or at least I was so cold I thought I'd die even though according to everyone, the room was as hot as hell). And it lasted over a week.

This is just friendly advice, BTW, in case you think I'm attacking your plan. :) I admire everyone who tries to get fit and take care of themselves. I just don't want to see you make the same mistake I did. Good luck with your program and let us know how it goes!

Groove- hope you saw my reply on the other thread. Don’t quite understand what the issue you had with me was, but whatever, I meant no offense to anybody. Hey, just a regular guy hanging out, learnin’ a little, helpin’ a little! Look forward to our future encounters. Does that clear things up? SRS.

Damn! Every time I want to answer a post, Tampa-Terry has already covered all the bases! Keep up the good work, dude!

ROFL. Yup, I’m overdue for a vacation. Will try to exhibit a little more restraint in the future.

Dude, you’ve been away for 6 months… that’s a long time to just jump right back into it and expect amazing reults. starting a program for the first time in your life, or even coming off a long lay-off, you need to take smaller steps. in my experience, i’ve come back from long lay offs like you, and for me, to go really gung-ho like i’ve been known to, i get burned out and discouraged real quick !!.. just get back in the gym, enjoy working out like you used to, and things will snow ball dramatically, and you’ll be back in shape in (seemingly) no time. you’re wanting to lose 45 pounds in 18 weeks. last year i lost 40 pounds in 16 weeks, so that IMO is a very obtainable goal. good luck, think positive, don’t become hard on yourself, and you will be successfull.