Plateau Again After Returning to the Gym

[quote]astrbac wrote:

Am I supposed to do these exrx on the days when I press overhead, on the day’s when I don’t press OR should I do these alone, for some time and then start overhead pressing?

The text doesnt lay out any programming[/quote]

I asked the same thing on here, and the response that I got is that it doesn’t matter, just throw it in at the end of whichever day works for you. I do DB suppine rolls once a week, depending on whether or not I have a volume day w/ OHP. The article made it seem like you shouldn’t do OHP until you can progress through everything, but that would take years, so I just throw something in once or twice a week.

For what it’s worth, I ran Wichita Falls SS for awhile too, and asking how to deal w/ stalls are pretty common. Though, 3x5 worked better than 5x3 for me until the end.
How many deloads have you gone through? You may be able to milk some more out of it.

[quote]astrbac wrote:
Squat
Deadlift
Pull up
Good morning
Power clean
Farmers walk

(Bench)
(Military press)

If I could, I would only do 3 out of these, one per day, but up the volume to say 10x5. Obviously I have A LOT more to learn ;)[/quote]

I found this the other day: Screw Exercise Variation!

See the section “A Verdict and Solution”.

You should add bent rows or cable rows or Meadows rows (or some other type of row) to that list. Also weighted dips. You may want to consider standing or kneeling straight-arm pulldowns too.

Personally, I’d lean more towards 3x8-12 or 4x6-10 rather than 10x5. 24-40 reps is generally a good place to be. But that’s me.

[quote]astrbac wrote:
How does this sound (push pull leg routine, one compound exrx plus 2 add.):

MON
Standing military press 5x5
Lat delt DB raise 3x8-10
Tric dips 2xX (X=exhaustion)

WED
Deadlift 3x5
Wide grip pullups 3xX
? (missing an exrx)

FRI
Rear foot elevated Single squat 5x5
Good morning 3x8
Hanging leg raise 2xX

I would really like to add power cleans or even clean and press somewhere but am struggling to see where to fit em?

Main goal: functional strength, explosiveness and some hypertrophy that follows naturally[/quote]

Ok, first as has been said already this is not good at all–the volume is low, which we already know you need to increase, and moreover the first exercise list was better because: it had no isolation lifts, all heavy lifts, this is GOOD–if you’re doing only upper body and only choosing 3 movements, you should NOT be doing any isolation exercises (db raise is a no no)

Secondly, yes my opinion is you just jump straight into a program, either 5/3/1 or Westside for Skinny Bastards. My personal preference is Westside, but both are good. 5x5 is however a better volume program than what you have here or had up there. 5x5 is pretty solid all around.

You can get through a work out quickly if you just lessen rest periods and don’t look at a clock, just go.

Finally–Because you like short, sweet workouts that focus on a couple lifts, you can organize training this way:

Monday–Squat, 1 hamstring movement, abs
Tuesday- Bench, row, shoulder press, chin
Wednes- power clean, then Deadlift or Goodmorning --if you can’t power clean dont. Do deadlifts or goodmornings, then do 1 quad movement, abs

Thurs-- OFF
Friday-- Squat, hamstring movement, abs
Satur-- Shoulder press/push press, chin, bench, row
Sunday–OFF

You do upper body days by alternating a push with a row/chin set. That way you only take 45 seconds between a set but have about 2 minutes between bench presses. Presses are 5 reps, back movements 8 or more per set. Moves fairly quick

This kind of workout will only work if you can go frequently. If you can’t stick to hitting the gym 5/6 times a week, You can’t stick with only two exercises in a workout. That’s the reality. You shorten time in the gym by not taking 2-3 minute long breaks except on the first exercise when it gets heavy. If you can only go 3-4 times a week, you have to get things done, so you have to do more in each session. If you keep missing workouts because of your schedule, then you can only got 3-4 times a week. That’s why I like Westside and 5/3/1, they are set up for 4 days a week.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]astrbac wrote:
Squat
Deadlift
Pull up
Good morning
Power clean
Farmers walk

(Bench)
(Military press)

If I could, I would only do 3 out of these, one per day, but up the volume to say 10x5. Obviously I have A LOT more to learn ;)[/quote]

I found this the other day: Screw Exercise Variation!

See the section “A Verdict and Solution”.

You should add bent rows or cable rows or Meadows rows (or some other type of row) to that list. Also weighted dips. You may want to consider standing or kneeling straight-arm pulldowns too.

Personally, I’d lean more towards 3x8-12 or 4x6-10 rather than 10x5. 24-40 reps is generally a good place to be. But that’s me.[/quote]

If you only did one movement a day you would be wasting your time doing 3 sets of 10-12. Or even 4 x 6. It would not be enough growth stimulus. You would have to do 10x3, or 8-10 x 4-5. You need the heavy weight to recruit the hight threshold motor units. ESPECIALLY if it’s the only exercise you are doing in a day.

Aragorn - thank so much for the effort of taking the time to write out a detailed workout plan plus explanations, much appreciated! I have started with Bill Starrs Original routine yesterday and am going to stick to it at least 12 or even more weeks. I’ll keep tracking my progress as I always do and will report here.

When time to switch comes, Ill get to your plan and keep at it for another 12-18 weeks.

Also, I feel I haven’t been clear enough in my initial and some posts further down the line - I AM all up for raising the volume, I’m not avoiding it on purpose. The thing is, a lot of the info available is contradictory. My initial instinct is to do a couple of whole body, compound movements each training day. After that I read about things like “rear delts frequently lagging… certain injuries when weight progresses”, etc. and I decice to include some targeted isolations which is not good because now my time in the gym is too long if I want to stick to the original plan.

By mentioning that I would do only one excercise if I could :slight_smile: I didn’t mean 3x10 and going home. In this case I would go for something along the lines of GVT, like 10x3 or even 10x5, keep things simple and play around with loading waves.

Mon - squat 10x5

Wed - OH press or Clean and press 10x5 or 10x3 if too difficult

Fri - 10x2, 3, 4, 5… Pull ups

I know this might seem totally ridiculous but it’s just an example of simplicity. Keep doing one thing, with good form and vary weights. It’s 50 reps per bodypart, compound movements, the ones that really require CNS activation, coordination, strength, the lot.

Cheers!

[quote]astrbac wrote:
After that I read about things like “rear delts frequently lagging… certain injuries when weight progresses”, etc.
[/quote]

I am the only person(and my “apprentice” friend) who does face-pulls in my gym. Most people don’t even know they have a missing posterior deltoid.

It took about a month of twice-per-week face-pulling to reap the benefits of how healthy they are for the shoulders. I usually do them in a combined shoulder warmup prior to each pressing day, and, then I add them on my pull-day as well.

I go heavy(ier) on pull days and I go nice-and-light for the warmup procedure. Check it out

If you only want to do one lift a day…

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]astrbac wrote:
Squat
Deadlift
Pull up
Good morning
Power clean
Farmers walk

(Bench)
(Military press)

If I could, I would only do 3 out of these, one per day, but up the volume to say 10x5. Obviously I have A LOT more to learn ;)[/quote]

I found this the other day: Screw Exercise Variation!

See the section “A Verdict and Solution”.

You should add bent rows or cable rows or Meadows rows (or some other type of row) to that list. Also weighted dips. You may want to consider standing or kneeling straight-arm pulldowns too.

Personally, I’d lean more towards 3x8-12 or 4x6-10 rather than 10x5. 24-40 reps is generally a good place to be. But that’s me.[/quote]

If you only did one movement a day you would be wasting your time doing 3 sets of 10-12. Or even 4 x 6. It would not be enough growth stimulus. You would have to do 10x3, or 8-10 x 4-5. You need the heavy weight to recruit the hight threshold motor units. ESPECIALLY if it’s the only exercise you are doing in a day.
[/quote]

You know, I completely misread how he planned to program it.

I was reading it as “pick 3 of them, do all 3 in one day” and then do another 3 another day. Basically I was reading it in the context of the article I linked, rather than what he actually wrote.

Thanks for catching that.

[quote]astrbac wrote:
Aragorn - thank so much for the effort of taking the time to write out a detailed workout plan plus explanations, much appreciated! I have started with Bill Starrs Original routine yesterday and am going to stick to it at least 12 or even more weeks. I’ll keep tracking my progress as I always do and will report here.

When time to switch comes, Ill get to your plan and keep at it for another 12-18 weeks.

Also, I feel I haven’t been clear enough in my initial and some posts further down the line - I AM all up for raising the volume, I’m not avoiding it on purpose. The thing is, a lot of the info available is contradictory. My initial instinct is to do a couple of whole body, compound movements each training day. After that I read about things like “rear delts frequently lagging… certain injuries when weight progresses”, etc. and I decice to include some targeted isolations which is not good because now my time in the gym is too long if I want to stick to the original plan.

By mentioning that I would do only one excercise if I could :slight_smile: I didn’t mean 3x10 and going home. In this case I would go for something along the lines of GVT, like 10x3 or even 10x5, keep things simple and play around with loading waves.

Mon - squat 10x5

Wed - OH press or Clean and press 10x5 or 10x3 if too difficult

Fri - 10x2, 3, 4, 5… Pull ups

I know this might seem totally ridiculous but it’s just an example of simplicity. Keep doing one thing, with good form and vary weights. It’s 50 reps per bodypart, compound movements, the ones that really require CNS activation, coordination, strength, the lot.

Cheers![/quote]

No that’s perfectly fine, the 3x10 comment I made was directed at someone else–not you–explaining why it wouldn’t be recommended. 10x3 is great, loading waves are cool too.

For the record, my “plan” as you say was not really thought up with you specifically in mind, it was more to make a point–although it may have been lost in translation. I am not sure if english is your first language and I get the impression it is not?..you do use the metric system after all :wink:

At any rate, my point in showing you that weekly layout was this: doing only a couple exercises in a session only works if you can hit the gym very frequently. If you can only hit the gym 3 or 4 times, consistently, then the sessions have to be longer to get the work in that you will need to progress. So, for instance, a guy hitting the gym only 3 times a week will need to have longer workouts–meaning mostly workouts with more than 3 exercises–to make the progress he wants to make.

Regarding my week’s layout, I would add a squat variation to Wednesday, done lighter and for technical speed, not heavy weight. Lower reps. That way you keep 3 squat days in there. I would actually just suggest a different workout protocol like Westside for Skinny Bastards or something. Or even the Beginner’s template for Westside.

Your problem, which I can’t be certain of but have a very good feeling for, is that you need more assistance exercises to bring up weaknesses in the big lifts that are not being addressed by simply doing the lifts themselves. Meaning, you need to do more than squat, bench in order to increase your squat and bench. This is particularly true because you said you are a long limbed individual.

Do not be so worried about the time spent in the gym being “too long” unless you have schedule conflicts with work or family. It is more important to get the essential work done than to be “on time”. There is no invisible limit to how long you can spend in the gym. Well, there is…but it is a lot longer than 45-60 minutes.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]astrbac wrote:
Squat
Deadlift
Pull up
Good morning
Power clean
Farmers walk

(Bench)
(Military press)

If I could, I would only do 3 out of these, one per day, but up the volume to say 10x5. Obviously I have A LOT more to learn ;)[/quote]

I found this the other day: Screw Exercise Variation!

See the section “A Verdict and Solution”.

You should add bent rows or cable rows or Meadows rows (or some other type of row) to that list. Also weighted dips. You may want to consider standing or kneeling straight-arm pulldowns too.

Personally, I’d lean more towards 3x8-12 or 4x6-10 rather than 10x5. 24-40 reps is generally a good place to be. But that’s me.[/quote]

If you only did one movement a day you would be wasting your time doing 3 sets of 10-12. Or even 4 x 6. It would not be enough growth stimulus. You would have to do 10x3, or 8-10 x 4-5. You need the heavy weight to recruit the hight threshold motor units. ESPECIALLY if it’s the only exercise you are doing in a day.
[/quote]

You know, I completely misread how he planned to program it.

I was reading it as “pick 3 of them, do all 3 in one day” and then do another 3 another day. Basically I was reading it in the context of the article I linked, rather than what he actually wrote.

Thanks for catching that.[/quote]

Haha. It’s all good. I do stuff like that all the time.

Aragorn, you got it right :wink: - Croatian is my mothertongue but since theres only about 5 mil Croatians in the world (or thereabout) we have to try and learn other languages. I think I’m doin fine with English but yes, measurements are always tough ones… Imperial that is.

I understand what you are saying about assistance work to the major lifts and you are probably right. You can’t have big bench without strong triceps and shoulders, you can’t squat much if your lower back breaks by just looking at it, etc.

Hm, this makes me reconsider my whole training philosophy (which is not a bad thing at all)…

[quote]astrbac wrote:
Aragorn, you got it right :wink: - Croatian is my mothertongue but since theres only about 5 mil Croatians in the world (or thereabout) we have to try and learn other languages. I think I’m doin fine with English but yes, measurements are always tough ones… Imperial that is.

I understand what you are saying about assistance work to the major lifts and you are probably right. You can’t have big bench without strong triceps and shoulders, you can’t squat much if your lower back breaks by just looking at it, etc.

Hm, this makes me reconsider my whole training philosophy (which is not a bad thing at all)…[/quote]

Nope, not a bad thing at all! There’s not much wrong with your english either, very understandable barring some subtle things which get cleared up eventually anyways. I just had a hunch is all haha.

And there’s nothing wrong with liking shorter targeted workouts either. You just have to continue to make sure you’re getting any assistance work you need in there instead of another exercise that won’t help. Limiting rest periods might not be a bad idea either because it will allow you to get more work done in the same amount of time spent in the gym. Clearly that can be taken too far, especially if strength is the primary goal, but to a degree it may be helpful.

Naturally it can be hard to sometimes tell if your weakness in a lift is technique, mental, or muscular weakness (read the Dave Tate article from a few days ago on this for an overview).

If you do have a good idea what your weakness is muscularly speaking, then that needs to be priority number 1 right behind the lift itself, and you need to have at least 1 good assistance exercise in your workout aimed at that particular weakness. As a general rule longer limbed people need more assistance work on squats and bench to address leverage/muscular weaknesses.

Oh, and I would also say that upper back weakness can be a real limiter in the squat as well–if your upper back has a problem supporting the weight and staying “chest up to the roof” simultaneously it can cause your balance to slip forward when your upper back rounds over. This has nothing to do with your lower back strength itself. It is a function of upper back strength, ab strength, and technique.

Just to let everyone her know what happened with my training. After all, it is common courtesy to show appreciation when people take the time to help out :wink:

I persisted, ditched all of the analysis paralysis and went for the 5/3/1. Great gains in 4 months, injury better, lots of lessons learned. Most important of them all - switch timeframe from weeks to months, even years.

Now I’m doing Beyond 531, helluva lot of volume and eating like a maniac. Will report in a few moths again. Thanks for all the replies once again