T Nation

Planned Parenthood II


#1

Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.


#2

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

It all jives as long as the societal justice is merely taking the role an individual who was wronged, would have the moral right to pursue. Like if someone stole your property, you’d have the right to fight them to get it back, if society is taking back stolen property it’s just fulfilling the rights of the violated individual. If a guy tries to rape my daughter, I can beat the shit out of him and tie him to a tree so he’s no longer a threat, so society can too. [/quote]

Alright. Let me be blunt here because I no longer follow.

Can you answer this question?

[quote] magick wrote:

[quote] DoubleDuce wrote:

If you violate another person’s rights, yes a natural right can be removed.[/quote]

Can you detail your reasoning behind this?[/quote]


#3

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Punishing someone is not a determination of their inherent value to the world. [/quote]

Let me clarify- with that quote, I meant to imply “serious” punishments, such as executing someone or putting them in life imprisonment (or, to be real, imprisonment in general)

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Punishing someone, a criminal in this case, is just that. A punishment. It isn’t revocation of rights protection because they have lessor value as a human, it’s revocation of rights protection because they did something fucking stupid.[/quote]

I’ll ask you a similar question to the one I ask DoubleDuce.

I can accept the claim that “Your rights end where another’s begin”. I can also buy the whole “they are negative in nature” aspect In fact, based on what you and DoubleDuce tend to write regarding natural right, these seems to be fundamental.

So, given this, I can also buy that a person who violates another’s right is committing a grave act.

My question is, how do you reason what you do when someone commits such an act? As far as I can tell, the definitions of natural rights you guys gave give me nothing to work with when this happens.

How does natural rights figure into things when a person violates another’s right? Does this give the victim, or society, the right to do something to the violator? If so, how? As DoubleDuce wrote earlier, natural rights are negative in nature. There is nothing about their definition that allows you to reason what you can do when someone does violate your right. In fact, it seems completely antithetical to the definition, seeing as how you MUST do something to the violator.


#4

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You misunderstand. I was replying to pats comment about Polio and trying to help him understand why ratios are important. Then you come along talking about genocide and slavery.


#5

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You still haven’t told me why this is not a chicken


#6

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You still haven’t told me why this is not a chicken
[/quote]

It is a chicken you fucking dipshit, just one that hasn’t developed past the “egg” stage.


#7

[quote]magick wrote:

My question is, how do you reason what you do when someone commits such an act? As far as I can tell, the definitions of natural rights you guys gave give me nothing to work with when this happens.[/quote]

Because humans are fundamentally an imperfect, and often flawed species. We’re not really good at being good to each other, particularly when we have power over another.

Don’t get me wrong, there are a plethora of wonderful individuals out there, but there are monsters too.

So we, if we are to live in a society, a collection of individuals need to make a choice. If we are to be realistic and accept the fact there are evil people in the world, we must do what we can to prevent evil, and maintain as much order as possible if all good people are to thrive.

So, what we’ve come up with is “rule of law”. Our laws are imperfect just as each of us are. Their application and use is as imperfect as we are as well, but it’s the best system we’ve come up with for maintaining order, which gives the good people of the world the environment needed to have a fulfilling life.

Laws don’t dictate morality, but morality should, at least on some levels, dictate our laws. Equal application being of utmost importance.

No. (Well in cases of self defense it gives the victim the right to protect themselves, but I’m trying to ignore gray areas for the sake of discussion.)

It gives society and victims the duty of punishment. It requires us as a group of individuals to try and protect future innocent good people from falling victim.

We must do something to the violator to prevent, as best we can, future violations.

Again, it’s like scolding your kid.


#8

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You misunderstand. I was replying to pats comment about Polio and trying to help him understand why ratios are important. Then you come along talking about genocide and slavery.[/quote]

Ratios are not important. Raw numbers are. Would the holocaust be any less horrible if there were more Jews in the Germany at the time, but the same number murdered?

Second of all. All the charts and graphs failed to show that the any decline in abortion was due to the availability of birth control. That was the point. Not reductions in abortions, reductions in abortion due to the availability and use of birth control. This was not demonstrated.
Perhaps the reduction was due to increased conscience and awareness that the reality of abortion is murder and people no longer want to be a part of this silent holocaust.


#9

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You misunderstand. I was replying to pats comment about Polio and trying to help him understand why ratios are important. Then you come along talking about genocide and slavery.[/quote]

Here ya go, stats:
Show me where in the stats where birth control is mentioned as a contributing factor in the reduction of abortions?

Go on. Because what I said is that there is no correlation between the increase in acceptance and affordability of birth control and the abortion rate. There are stats that indicate a slight decline in abortion, but no where does it say that it is due to the increase in acceptance and affordability of birth control.
It’s amazing that you can use charts and graphs and government data and still manage to talk out of your ass.


#10

pat wrote:

I am not concerned with ratios I am concerned with numbers.

If polio kills 1.2 million people a year and the population increase by 50%, does it make polio any less of a killer? The answer is no.

[/quote]

“Compared with 2010, the total NUMBER and rate of reported abortions for 2011 decreased 5%, and the abortion ratio decreased 4%. Additionally, from 2002 to 2011 the NUMBER, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 13%, 14%, and 12%, respectively.”

http://www.cdc.gov/...lth/data_stats/

Your unsubstantiated thesis is bunk.


#11

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You misunderstand. I was replying to pats comment about Polio and trying to help him understand why ratios are important. Then you come along talking about genocide and slavery.[/quote]

Here ya go, stats:
Show me where in the stats where birth control is mentioned as a contributing factor in the reduction of abortions?

Go on. Because what I said is that there is no correlation between the increase in acceptance and affordability of birth control and the abortion rate. There are stats that indicate a slight decline in abortion, but no where does it say that it is due to the increase in acceptance and affordability of birth control.
It’s amazing that you can use charts and graphs and government data and still manage to talk out of your ass.[/quote]

The lead author of a Guttmacher Institute study on abortion rates in the United States notes that “the decline in abortions coincided with a steep national drop in overall pregnancy and birth rates. Contraceptive use improved during this period, as more women and couples were using highly effective long-acting reversible contraceptive methods, such as the IUD.”


#12

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You misunderstand. I was replying to pats comment about Polio and trying to help him understand why ratios are important. Then you come along talking about genocide and slavery.[/quote]

Ratios are not important. Raw numbers are. Would the holocaust be any less horrible if there were more Jews in the Germany at the time, but the same number murdered?

Second of all. All the charts and graphs failed to show that the any decline in abortion was due to the availability of birth control. That was the point. Not reductions in abortions, reductions in abortion due to the availability and use of birth control. This was not demonstrated.
Perhaps the reduction was due to increased conscience and awareness that the reality of abortion is murder and people no longer want to be a part of this silent holocaust.
[/quote]

Genocide? Holocaust? Why do these discussions inevitably devolve into histrionic red herrings? Abortion is not an institution. It is not systemic. Rather, it is an individual level medical decision. US law holds that neither the patient nor the doctor are engaged in murder. Rather than emotively deriding a legitimate medical practice as a capital crime, abortion opponents should address the demand for abortion by advocating for improved sexual education and subsidized contraceptives. Attempts to affect the supply side of abortion are doomed to end in abject failure.


#13

[quote]pat wrote:
Ratios are not important. Raw numbers are. Would the holocaust be any less horrible if there were more Jews in the Germany at the time, but the same number murdered?
[/quote]

It would be less horrible but that is a bad example since there was so many to begin with and it was a one time event vs a disease which is more of a constant rate we can measure the rate of year by year for a long period of time.

[quote]pat wrote:
Second of all. All the charts and graphs failed to show that the any decline in abortion was due to the availability of birth control. That was the point. Not reductions in abortions, reductions in abortion due to the availability and use of birth control. This was not demonstrated.
Perhaps the reduction was due to increased conscience and awareness that the reality of abortion is murder and people no longer want to be a part of this silent holocaust.
[/quote]

Bismark answered this one already

Abortion acceptance has not really changed either, if anything its arguably more accepted these days. Did you hear about that shout your abortion thing recently on social media?


#14

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You misunderstand. I was replying to pats comment about Polio and trying to help him understand why ratios are important. Then you come along talking about genocide and slavery.[/quote]

Ratios are not important. Raw numbers are. Would the holocaust be any less horrible if there were more Jews in the Germany at the time, but the same number murdered?

Second of all. All the charts and graphs failed to show that the any decline in abortion was due to the availability of birth control. That was the point. Not reductions in abortions, reductions in abortion due to the availability and use of birth control. This was not demonstrated.
Perhaps the reduction was due to increased conscience and awareness that the reality of abortion is murder and people no longer want to be a part of this silent holocaust.
[/quote]

Also, why did you mention a decline in abortion in the graph if rations are unimportant to you (which is what the graph is showing). If all those graphs are unimportant to you so why mention them?


#15

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#16

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

Genocide? Holocaust? Why do these discussions inevitably devolve into histrionic red herrings? Abortion is not an institution. It is not systemic. Rather, it is an individual level medical decision. US law holds that neither the patient nor the doctor are engaged in murder. Rather than emotively deriding a legitimate medical practice as a capital crime, abortion opponents should address the demand for abortion by advocating for improved sexual education and subsidized contraceptives. Attempts to affect the supply side of abortion are doomed to end in abject failure.[/quote]

You’re just another example of the equivalent of an 18th century proponent of slavery. The comparison is remarkable. And accurate.
[/quote]

You’re just another example of a person who can feel much better than they can think when it comes to the subject. Again, the red herring description is apt. The young disadvantaged inner city teenager and the doctor that works long hours for low wages and death threats are not colluding to benefit from the abortion of an embryo or fetus.


#17

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Every single abortion slaughters an innocent child, in their first home. Abortion is not just a social issue but an ethical one as well. The full impact of the atrocious actions will not be seen until much later, very similar to the holocaust of the Jews, the genocides of history and slavery.

I refuse to sit idly by and watch people openly killing of faultless children.

You still haven’t told me why this is not a chicken
[/quote]

It is a chicken you fucking dipshit, just one that hasn’t developed past the “egg” stage. [/quote]

Hey shit for brains , so you go to a restaurant and order chicken and they bring you this ? you will not complain ???


#18

Two humans at the egg and sperm stage, or a human egg and a human sperm?


#19

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#20

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