Pitching For Power

[quote]TheZ-Man wrote:
I agree to a certain extent…What is in the genetic makeup of mariano rivera or pedro martinez that allows them to throw in the low-mid 90’s? [/quote]

long fluid limbs, large hands and simplified mechanics that allow them to maximize their physical makeups. plus guys from the dominican have the advantage of year round ball, building arm strength from day 1. its all relative anyway and every individual is different…looking at pedro you would never think he could pump mid 90’s, conversely take a look at a guy like hendrikson who looks like he should blow gas, but only tops at 88-89.

you can’t manufacture a power pitcher…you can only provide the proper tools that will help maximize the individuals potential.

[quote]TheZ-Man wrote:
Very interesting…

Another thing I found to help is wrist flexibilty. Doing drills where you pull your hand back and hold for 5 secs, then releasing it and let the wrist explode forward helps with this. I believe the increased rotation you can accomplish on the ball, through greater ROM in the wrist, will add a little to anyone’s fastball.
[/quote]

Yes, I believe if one can have greater flexibility in the wrist more snap will be on the heater.

I remember going to a ODU pitchers camp when I was around 13 & one of the instructors there could bend his wrist WAY back! On one else could even compare to it! He said did a alot of stretching for both his upper & lower body, holding his stretches up to 3 mins. He said it had alot (The wrist) to do w/ his extra pop on his fastball. Interesting.

I believe the key is starting off on the right foot at an early age. I startd @ 12. I worked w/ many pitching coaches. Read all the books & watched anything I could on video. Had all of Tom House’s books. Tom Seaver had a great book. Nolan Ryan had a great book also. Was really into Dick Mills in the mid-to late 90’s. Nothing seemed to get me over that hump though. And it didn’t help that I was a late bloomer w/ the strenght & coordination.

Yes, I know of Setpro very well! I bought their best bat speed training computer back in 96’ w/ my graduation money that I received. It was really cool & made a HUGE difference w/ my hitting. I know alot of the pros use them in their training.

I never looked into the pitching stuff they had @ the time. My parents had already spent enough on every thing else during the yrs. for both baseball & basketball. :-)) I will look into it. Thanks!

I remember seeing Ben Mcdonald holding 7 baseballs in his rt. hand!

[quote]TheZ-Man wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
that is why gentetic potential will always be the limiting factor when it comes to velocity. i’m not saying all the specific training methods do not work…they do! but they only work to help an individual acheive his potential…if it is 82, then its 82.

I agree to a certain extent…What is in the genetic makeup of mariano rivera or pedro martinez that allows them to throw in the low-mid 90’s? [/quote]

Don’t forget about Billy Wagner. Hardly a genetic freak at about five ten and left handed but throws 100 mph. Which is also why he has been having so many shoulder problems lately.

Coach Davies, I went outside this afternoon and threw off the mound for about 2 hours. I was trying to be as explosive as you said. My arm really hurts now. I’m thinking hard about my mechanics but I still don’t understand about retraction speed of the scap. Could you help me with that? I’m 16 years old and want to play varsity this year. What else should I do to get ready? Do you have a website?


2 hours is a long bullpen session even with some good long toss. BTW Coach Davies is at renegadetraining.com and there was a good fireballers workout that works great for players your age. Good Long toss will help some too.

A lot of the factors that Major Dan spoke to are right on. Being fluid with your body and mechanics comes back to how much balance you also have. Not that I want you to go throw a pen from the top of a Swiss ball. I’d like to see it though. I did see Brady Anderson in Spring training take some swings off the machine from on top of a ball. Did that make him a better hitter, who knows? Here is a pic for all the T-maggers who like to look at bodies.

[quote]Stronski wrote:
Coach Davies, I went outside this afternoon and threw off the mound for about 2 hours. I was trying to be as explosive as you said. My arm really hurts now. I’m thinking hard about my mechanics but I still don’t understand about retraction speed of the scap. Could you help me with that? I’m 16 years old and want to play varsity this year. What else should I do to get ready? Do you have a website?
[/quote]

Ahh “Stronski” why did you go throw off the mound for 2 hours?..Well youth is beautiful and I commend you for your efforts but you have to do this properly. Can you first get some ice on that shoulder/elbow.

Also have you worked with a pitching coach before?

In faith,

Coach Davies

[quote]hard9026 wrote:
2 hours is a long bullpen session even with some good long toss. BTW Coach Davies is at renegadetraining.com and there was a good fireballers workout that works great for players your age. Good Long toss will help some too.

A lot of the factors that Major Dan spoke to are right on. Being fluid with your body and mechanics comes back to how much balance you also have. Not that I want you to go throw a pen from the top of a Swiss ball. I’d like to see it though. I did see Brady Anderson in Spring training take some swings off the machine from on top of a ball. Did that make him a better hitter, who knows? Here is a pic for all the T-maggers who like to look at bodies.[/quote]

oh you’re just trouble aren’t you - btw I hope you enjoyed my story of “sunshine”.

Hopefully someone around here will ask you about hitting mechanics too…lot that you can teach them. Thanks -

In faith,

Coach Davies

[quote]Stronski wrote:
Coach Davies, I went outside this afternoon and threw off the mound for about 2 hours. I was trying to be as explosive as you said. My arm really hurts now. I’m thinking hard about my mechanics but I still don’t understand about retraction speed of the scap. Could you help me with that? I’m 16 years old and want to play varsity this year. What else should I do to get ready? Do you have a website?
[/quote]

Dude! Are u for real?! 2 hrs. off the mound? Hahahaha. Your arm is gonna fall right off the bone. This is a joke, right?

major dan, thanks for taking the time to elaborate on my point. i’m glad someone is on the same wavelength here.

to all the fellows chiming in saying “what about this guy, and this guy”…you guys slightly misunderstood the point. no one is saying you need to be a hoss, or fit the prototypical power pitchers build in order to have the potential to throw gas. velocity cannot be taught to an appreciable degree, BUT all the building blocks used to allow a pitcher to maximize his potential can be. for example, a guy throwing 85 with mechanical flaws could improve his velocity by lets say 3-4 mph by correcting the problem , add in some specific training and you may get another 1-2 mph. but on the flip side, someone with excellent mechanics, who takes all the necessary steps to be the best he can be through training, conditioning etc etc…yet still only tops at 85-86 is probably at the threshold of their velocity potential. you either have that potential, or you don’t…and in general, no amount of coaching or training will push you past it.

BTW major dan, i agree with you on the tom house comment, the vast majority of his thoughts on mechanics are absolute crap…tall and fall…what a load!

Coach Davies-
can you elaborate on your reference to scapulae and pitching. Very few people even mention the relationship. I’m interested in what you view as their role in the throwing motion.

juice20jd-
nice to know somebody else out there understands this. Its heresy in the pitching coach world to disagree with any of House’s stuff despite lack of results.

This was just too good for a thread not to jump in on. Seems like baseball is only in the news these days for all the wrong reasons.

Someone mentioned something about Roger Clemens’ workout program. I wish I had the exact article too, but I know he was a big believer in leg training/leg drive and also in strengthening his grip/forearm by jamming his pitching arm into a barrell of rice (as was mentioned in the Dave Tate Powerlifter’s Toolbox recently).

In terms of pitching genetics, I know the Dodgers organization had a “method” by which they tried to judge ability to throw hard by measuring the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger. Players with longer fingers tended to have greater snap on the ball and ability to deliver it with greater velocity (which would explain a lot about the heat Pedro Martinez was bringing in his prime… not that he is a slouch now).

One interesting thing I saw on Nolan Ryan’s mechanics that always stuck with me. I saw an analysis of his pitching motion on ESPN where they were looking to determine why Nolan was able to throw so damn hard for so damn long without serious injury. They noticed that he would not break his hands and bring the ball out of his mitt until AFTER he began his leg drive to the plate. Their take was that pitchers who broke before the leg drive were attempting to rely far too much on their arms and shoulders to generate velocity as opposed to letting the leg drive and body torque set up the arm. Kind of an interesting analysis that made a lot of sense once it was pointed out.

Sorry for all of the random quips, but I am loving this thread. I am with you Coach D… glad to see people are still playing baseball.

Kuz

I bring this up only as an aside because what’s really interesting is that some scouting tools and various methods to assess upside potential of velocity revolve around a theoretical point. It was mentioned in another series of posts (I apologize for not remembering your name) that much of this debate lays in whether top speed is manufactured via pitching mechanics or through neuro-muscular abilities.

Of course this lends itself into a very heated debate with various pitching coaches? approach but I have too much respect for the science of pitching not to always recommend that a pitcher seeks out as much information possible from a skill coach and then combines it with the correct training.

And, I’m just amazed people are talking baseball…nice to see.

In faith,

Coach Davies

[quote]Kuz wrote:
This was just too good for a thread not to jump in on. Seems like baseball is only in the news these days for all the wrong reasons.

Someone mentioned something about Roger Clemens’ workout program. I wish I had the exact article too, but I know he was a big believer in leg training/leg drive and also in strengthening his grip/forearm by jamming his pitching arm into a barrell of rice (as was mentioned in the Dave Tate Powerlifter’s Toolbox recently).

In terms of pitching genetics, I know the Dodgers organization had a “method” by which they tried to judge ability to throw hard by measuring the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger. Players with longer fingers tended to have greater snap on the ball and ability to deliver it with greater velocity (which would explain a lot about the heat Pedro Martinez was bringing in his prime… not that he is a slouch now).

One interesting thing I saw on Nolan Ryan’s mechanics that always stuck with me. I saw an analysis of his pitching motion on ESPN where they were looking to determine why Nolan was able to throw so damn hard for so damn long without serious injury. They noticed that he would not break his hands and bring the ball out of his mitt until AFTER he began his leg drive to the plate. Their take was that pitchers who broke before the leg drive were attempting to rely far too much on their arms and shoulders to generate velocity as opposed to letting the leg drive and body torque set up the arm. Kind of an interesting analysis that made a lot of sense once it was pointed out.

Sorry for all of the random quips, but I am loving this thread. I am with you Coach D… glad to see people are still playing baseball.

Kuz[/quote]

  • btw, great posts and nice to see someone with your experience offering help.

I am referring to loading process of the scap once explosively retracted / pinched and the transfer of momentum to throwing the ball forward. Big, fun topic that is best attributed to Paul Nyman of SetPro. Anyone who is serious about learning about this issue needs to read through his work as it is tremendous.

In faith,

Coach Davies

[quote]Major Dan wrote:
Coach Davies-
can you elaborate on your reference to scapulae and pitching. Very few people even mention the relationship. I’m interested in what you view as their role in the throwing motion.

juice20jd-
nice to know somebody else out there understands this. Its heresy in the pitching coach world to disagree with any of House’s stuff despite lack of results.[/quote]

[quote]Coach Davies wrote:
TheZ-Man wrote:
Coach Davies wrote:
leg drive with an eye most importantly towards speed the retraction of the shoulder scap.

Can you please clarify what you mean by this. Thanks. It’s great to have your input on this…

Leg drive, the ability to explode off the pitching mound with the retraction speed of the scap (along with of course skill related mechanics) are the influencing factors of throwing at top velocity. Unfortunately many will confuse training protocols/exercise but can’t visualize that is the underlying concept to help you produce heat.

I hope that helps.

In faith,

Coach Davies
[/quote]

I think Davies needs to take biomechanics 101. I fail to see how retraction speed of the scapulae would be a limiting factor in the speed of a pitch.

With all my work over the yrs. w/ the MANY pitching coach that I worked with at the end they said my motion was flawless! It’s just that I wasn’t the physically strong @ the time. I was 20-21. Ended up breaking my foot trying out for the Lynn Unversity b-ball team my Fr. yr. The recovery was 4 months & I was sick & tired of team sports. Got a job teaching tennis which I had played growing up & the baseball was over with.

With spring training in the air I’m tempted to go out & start throwing & see what happens! I also have the training kit, weighted baseballs & might try the program out & see what it does.

I’ll post what happens here when I’m finished w/ it. We’ll see!

Coach Davies-
I’m not surprised that you referenced Paul Nyman but I am surprised that you have come across his work.
It is great stuff AND very controversial in the pitching world where there is some kind of religious belief in what they teach.

For those wondering, the point of loading the scapulae (pinching the shoulder blades) is that you break the hands not by pulling the ball out of your glove but by pulling the elbows up and back - pinch your shoulder blades and watch where your elbows go.

With the shoulder blade of the throwing arm retracted, the arm travels with the torso and as the hips turn and as the hips turn the torso, the arm comes along with the shoulder/torso turn. as the shoulder turn slows, the arm whips forward.

Additionally, as noted with Nolan Ryan, doing this as late as possible adds some stretch response to the serratus muscles that hold the shoulder blades to the ribs and control their retraction.

The Tom House theorists will tell you not to bring the elbows back past the shoulder line. However this results in at best partial scap loading.
Then when the shoulder turn accelerates, there is not tight linkage of arm to torso and velocity is lost as force is put on the arm/ball for a shorter period of time.
The Tom House theorists would call scap loading ‘extraneous motion’ and dismiss it as unimportant or destructive to control.
and if you go to a pitching coach conference they would all nod in unison as the ‘extraneous motion’ mantra is slammed down like a club and you are dismissed as a know-nothing fool. Its quite amusing.

The RedSox pitching coach did that to me!!!
I’d love to have him explain Pedro’s motion but I had no clips to show.

If you are still reading this, you are either really dedicated or have too much time on your hands.

Sorry to hear about how a pitching changed what sounds like was working for you. I guess the best thing is that you can pass on your insight to others (see above).

Of course I’m aware of Paul Nyman’s work - it’s brilliant and I never worry about controversial issues. I only worry about the myopic vision that plagues performance enhancement work.

Drop me an email sometime - it would be great to talk sometime.

In faith,

Coach Davies

[quote]Major Dan wrote:
Coach Davies-
I’m not surprised that you referenced Paul Nyman but I am surprised that you have come across his work.
It is great stuff AND very controversial in the pitching world where there is some kind of religious belief in what they teach.

For those wondering, the point of loading the scapulae (pinching the shoulder blades) is that you break the hands not by pulling the ball out of your glove but by pulling the elbows up and back - pinch your shoulder blades and watch where your elbows go.

With the shoulder blade of the throwing arm retracted, the arm travels with the torso and as the hips turn and as the hips turn the torso, the arm comes along with the shoulder/torso turn. as the shoulder turn slows, the arm whips forward.

Additionally, as noted with Nolan Ryan, doing this as late as possible adds some stretch response to the serratus muscles that hold the shoulder blades to the ribs and control their retraction.

The Tom House theorists will tell you not to bring the elbows back past the shoulder line. However this results in at best partial scap loading.
Then when the shoulder turn accelerates, there is not tight linkage of arm to torso and velocity is lost as force is put on the arm/ball for a shorter period of time.
The Tom House theorists would call scap loading ‘extraneous motion’ and dismiss it as unimportant or destructive to control.
and if you go to a pitching coach conference they would all nod in unison as the ‘extraneous motion’ mantra is slammed down like a club and you are dismissed as a know-nothing fool. Its quite amusing.

The RedSox pitching coach did that to me!!!
I’d love to have him explain Pedro’s motion but I had no clips to show.

If you are still reading this, you are either really dedicated or have too much time on your hands.[/quote]