Physiology Lesson

Timbo: Funny, only a close friends have ever called me Steve-O (not that I’m offended by any means). Thanks alot for the words of encouragement! Too bad I don’t have you for a training partner (I could use one - working out alone makes this whole thing 10 times more difficult). I’ve kinda been in a mass phase since Memorial day, because of fate. I had my appendix out and was out of the iron game for 6 weeks - actually lost weight, but gained fat (which always sucks). So, I figured if I wasn’t going to be ripped for summer, I might as well go the opposite way and gain as much as I can during the winter. It is really tough psychologically though. As for how much weight, I don’t remember all of the details, but I was 175/7% at the end of August (I think I was about 178/4.9% before the surgery). Now I’m up to 188/8.5%, so it’s a gain of about 9 lbs (some of which I’m sure is water).

Anyway, it sounds like you are very determined to make the change, which is more then half the battle. Go out, kick some butt - we’re all in your corner! If your ever in so-cal, let me know and we’ll hit the plates.

Mike: Keep at it buddy. It sounds like we all know what your going through. At least your starting early, and your skin is still elastic - it will probably tighten up in time. I hear it can take at least 6 months, and usually longer. Try some skin creams (even some basic moisturizer helps). In any case, keep at it. Like I told Timbo, this shit is so much a mental battle as much as a physical one. Sounds like your doing damn well right now, and you’ll get where you want with as you experiment a little more and get more comfortable with how your body reacts to things. I have to admit, part of me knows I can get back to the 4% I was during my photos, and part of me wonders if I can anymore (and a big part of me want’s to look like that all the time!).

Steve-O…you da man, baby. Thanks for the support. Get your ass over here and let’s train, bro! I don’t have a partner either and sometimes I know I could do a little better with a T-Man there with me…for sure, if I’m ever in the area (should have come out for the Rose Bowl), I’ll let ya know and we’ll do some damage. Keep training (and dieting) balls-to-the-wall to get to that 4%! That’s probably where I’m at (maybe a little higher), but I wanna get huge at the same time…of course without losing all the wonderful cuts and striations…just a major (psychological) pain in the ass!

Mike...we got lots of time ahead of us, my man. We'll reach our goals if we stay focused and use what we have to our advantage. Glad you're sticking around the forum. Your support and the knowledge you're droppin' is welcome!

Steve-O? You’re not that crazy guy from MTV’s Jackass show that dove in the elephant poo are you? Just kidding-isn’t that a great show? Anyway…Mike-you had mentioned that you weren’t sure you were in ketosis on the AD. Just a couple of things: First, the one bad thing about the AD is that there’s not any real details on gram amounts besides carbs (also the same on his Metabolic diet), just percentages. The fat to protein ratio is just as critical as keeping your carbs low. Excess protein will convert to glucose, which will inhibit ketosis. In practice most people need approx. a 1/1 fat/protein gram ratio and there are some (the late Dan Duchaine for ex.) that advocated a higher approach such as 75% fat/25% protein. On the Anabolic Diet I doubt it’s as critical to enter full on ketosis if you’re doing the bulk phase (and some think that you don’t have to be in ketosis at all) but I always try to hit it on my low carb plans. If you’re unsure you could also get ketosticks and an even simpler method albeit crude is to notice the odor of your urine and breath. It has kind of a metallic smell when you are in ketosis. Something I plan on trying on my next carb up is to use really high doses of alpha lipoic acid (3000 mg in divided doses) then going to 600-1000 the rest of the time. According to some on here this really speeds up the process which is good since I generally have a pretty hard time getting back in, usually due to overdone carbups. Good luck!

Thanks again for the kind words guys…i love the enthusiasm…Here’s a little plan i’m thinking of let me know if this would work…for both phases cutting and mass i’m gonna cut down on the full fat cheeses, the 85 90 % beef and the sausage…breakfastwwill be two whole eggs with egg whites and full fat cheese…the next meal would be a shake w flax oil and some nuts… then maybe some lean turkey sausage…then like 95% lean beef and a salad with olive oil… and then a shake with more flax…this seems to make it healthier…like the tdag almost…plus …post workoutnutrition …should i exempt carbs til i hit ketosis or damn near close…and 1 more if i lower protein…will that risk muscle? Thanks in advance

Mike: We all feel your pain bro! Here’s my take on what your intending for your diet: The diet as you list is close to the t-dawg diet - I’d start with that (and particularly the supplement stuff in order to keep it healthy). But ultimately you are going to have to alternate your diet in order to gain mass and keep lean (perhaps the delta-1250 diet will work for you). As for keeping the muscle mass with the lower protien, I beleive for me (and this is not proven at all) that higher protien increases glucogenesis. That combined with a low-calorie diet seems to be disasterous for me. I think my body gets too efficient and burning protien for energy, and doesn’t care if it’s the muscle that I want or dietary protien. So, my recommendation is for cutting phases keep the protien no higher then 1 gm/lb of LBM, and keep the fat high. This is my intention when I try out the t-dawg diet next month. Right now I’m kinda in a transition stage, where my protien is about 1.25, fat is getting pretty high (I think I was at about 45%/day), and carbs are still too high for ketosis (about 130 gms). My plan is about 170-180 gms protien, 30-60 gms carbs, and about 170 gms or so of fat (whatever it takes to get me to 2700 calories/day). I’m also going to throw in some more ALA as in a few other posts to increase getting into ketosis. And don’t forget the carb up… besides the mental aspect of it, I think it reprimes the hormonal pumps to burn more fat.
Good luck man! Steve

Here’s my take on fat loss and muscle gain from a little different perspective.

First of all, I’m 51 y.o. I am 5’8" and weight 157. As of July 23, 2000 I weighed 225. That’s 68 lbs gone in about 6 months. At the time I started, my LBM was 135. It is now 130.

After the initial water loss, I basically followed the BFL diet, and have kept to 20% fat, 35% protein, 45% carb. I hold that mix constant, but will vary calories literally daily depending on the workout. I think you regulate bodyfat as much with cardio or using the T-Mag Warrior aerobics as anything. For several months, I was running 3-6 miles a day to drop the fat. I did, and my upper body went with it. Sure, I’d love to get to 10% fat, but its tough at 50+. So now I am doing cardio 5x a week, 20-30 minutes max just to elevate metabolism and lose a small amount of fat. I weight train 5 times a week. Since I started weights in October, I have in some cases tripled, and to most of you what I’m doing is laughable BUT I think losing less than 10% muscle is a testament to a reasonable diet, not necessaarily cycling high carb/low carb etc. I’m sure these work as well, but my experience shows other simplier ways can work too.

My ad skinfold is 9mm, waist 31 (from 42), yet my fat perentage still is high. Speaking of skin, jeez! Ah well, surgery no doubt. Anyway, using this formula, I have been consistently dropping 1.5%-2% fat a month for the past 90 days while weights and muscle increase. Hope this helps for a simple take. Jay.

Yeah, interesting discussion, but what about the biology of the question? As someone who’s come from 36% to 14% (and dropping), I’ve had to follow a low-calorie diet plan that’s prevented me from adding muscle size even though my strength has improved. So the original question still stands: why CAN’T we add muscle and lose fat at the same time? Why can’t we draw sufficient calories from adipose to fuel the development of new muscle size, instead of endlessly alternating between “mass” hases and “cutting” phases?

Akicita…yes, my T-Friend, that is exactly what I was originally concerned with. However, it was nice to hear from a few other fellas training balls-to-the-wall, fighting physical and mental roadblocks that most trainees just don’t understand or give a damn about. But, anyway, to get back on the topic…it’s strange seeing trainees, especially new ones, add muscle mass at astounding rates. I am intrigued by this and am still searching for an answer. I do think it’s possible to gain lean mass and lose fat at the same time, without being in a positive caloric balance. However, I think the bodyfat percentage has to be high enough where the body uses stored fat efficiently as an energy source and can therefore utilize the increased protein intake to build lean tissue. Just my thoughts…

Akicita & Jayalan: Congrats to both of you on your accomplishments!.. Here’s my take on cardio and why you cant gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. First, I believe that if your high in BF%, some moderate cardio is definitely called for. My guess is it’s sort of a bell curve - if your very high in BF%, it should be very light, as your heart is not used to the extra stress. As you start getting down below 20%, you can increase it - you litterally have fat to burn. As you get below 10%, cardio should be decreased greatly - at this point, your probably burning a lb. of muscle for about 1 lb of fat - not a good scenario. I think what you’ve both experienced is great, but the process will need to be changed as you get more experienced and your body composition changes. The other thing is goals - the primary goal of the poster is to gain muscle, but he want to still look ripped the whole time. For many people that haven’t been training long, the primary goal is to lose the fat. I personally wish I was a little more educated when I started training seriously about 3 1/2 years ago, as I probably wouldn’t have done as much cardio and burned precious muscle. But once again, it’s a matter of goals and education (we’re too educated to look at scale weight rather then body fat, so I kept going hoping to get my scale weight lower, killing off muscle at the same time). And here’s a place that I have to disagree with Jayalan - a successful (long term) diet and exersice plan sacrifices ZERO muscle, and should gain some (regardless of your age). If you’ve lost any muscle, the plan isn’t working for you (you’re probably over training).

Now, as to why you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time... well, this isn't entirely true - for beginners, this is entirely possible. My guess is because training and dietary changes are such a shock to the metabolism, that it burns whatever it can get to keep up... but there's plenty of fat, and not much muscle, so it goes for fat, even though that's a "harder" gram to burn (it is harder to burn a gram of fat then a gram of muscle). Plus, your muscles are in attrophy, so the shock of lifting causes them to overcompensate - they are completely unused to the new load, but are terrified that your going to do it again to them, so they better compensate (i.e. grow). But now as your body fat gets lower, there's little fat to burn, and your metabolism is jacked up. So, you go into sort of a self preservation mode, and too much energy expenditure forces you into a catabolic state. There are other reasons that poloquin and many other have gone into regarding cortisol levels and T levels on why cardio doesn't work at low body fats.

I'm not sure about the whole biochemistry aspect of this, but I suspect that it is impossible to convert a fat molecule into a muscle molecule, so you can't get enough energy from fat to convert it into muscle - what the fat does is provide energy to do the work that the muscle is requiring, and possibly provide it with fuel in order to keep it alive. But it doesn't convert into muscle - that's done by muscle cells splitting or getting larger (depending on who you listen too). Anyway, hope this helps (I've blabbered long enough). Congrats again!

Steve, thanks for the nice words and I would agree with nearly everything you said. I’m not sure that its possible to not lose some muscle in a severe weight loss as ours, but you may be right. I think your comments about a bell curve are astute and should be considered further.

As to overtraining, yes I did. To me high intensity was VO2 max at least 15% of the cardio, and for me that was hitting max heart rate 3-4 times while going always over 85%. It did improve my heart rate; my resting went from 81 to 57, but sure it cost me some muscle. It wasn’t a good plan. I think you need to stick between 75% and 90% tops to remain aerobic.

One thing I am doing to build muscle that may be working is using Tribex 500. I tried ZMA but with my strong multi vitamin and the MRPs the ZMA put me to over 1200 mg and that put me on the head for a day. A case of the shits ain’t worth it. But if nothing else Tribex 500 does give me a T boost to do an extra pound or rep or two.

Nice post, and thanks. Jay.

51 and a 9 mm. ab skinfold and a 31 inch waist? Awesome, truly awesome. I would say I hope I’m in that shape when I’m your age but that’s kind of a back handed compliment-you know what I mean anyway. And going from 36% to 14% Akicita? That’s very inspiring. Makes me feel kind of bad for whining about starting my diet after my surgery when I was 17-18%. You all truly are T-Men to the fullest. Man, I’d give anything to be at the seminar to meet you guys. There’s no way I’m missing the next one.

Guys, I was just scanning this thread and noticed a lot of you think you have the Adonis Complex/Body (or muscle) dysmorphia and a couple of you referred to the book of the same name. First, that book is shit, in my opinion a horrible waste of research time, so don’t read that book and think “i’ve got a problem.” Why, because everyone thinks that way about some aspect of their life (admittedly, for most it’s not bodybuilding), yet the authors only point fingers at those who focus on fitness…

To get back to my point, always wanting to be better and getting mad at yourself when you do something that hinders that is NOT dysfunctional!! That is normal for any highly successful person, lazy people don't have this problem, but then again, they're just lazy fucks!! To go back to the alcoholic reference (and there is no flame intended) but you really don't understand an alcoholic's cravings... Your body was crying out for something that is needs for "normal" functioning... this is decidedly different than the cravings an alcoholic has!!

The bottom line is this: there are legitimate cases of adonis/body dys. but they are very rare. If you still live what feels like a normal life that GIVES YOU PLEASURE, then I think you're okay. Also, someone suggested that you ask those around you, I really don't know if that works, considering if you're enthusiastic about something they don't care about (i.e. bodybuilding), they will most likely say that your behaviour is "odd". To reiterate, I think if you're happy, everything is just fine...

Thank you! It feels great, too. I’m fighting bad genetics all the way, but I’ve come to absolutely LOVE the fitness process–it’s not even a chore for me to eat responsibly now! (even the Fat Fast feels good, because I’m proud of every mouthful of flax I gag down–I know I’m making a leap forward in my fitness efforts). I’m worried about getting over-eager, though, and craving that six-pack of abs so bad that I get too drastic. I’ve never had a six-pack and I’m hoping this is the year for it. What’s really been nice is that my strength has gone up, even though my muscle size has been the same (despite fat loss, so I guess my muscles have developed to compensate). The best inspirational thought I can think of is that no matter HOW you look, you’re someone else’s goal in the gym (someone else there would kill to look like you do now).

To the individuals who wonder why you cannot build significant amounts of muscle while losing significant amounts of fat:

There is a rather straight forward reason for this. Building muscle is an inherently ANABOLIC process, while burning fat is inherently CATABOLIC. This may seem simplistic, but this is really the heart of the matter. There is a relative continuum with regard to these processes (ie. you can build more muscle on a moderate fat loss program than you can on a severe fat loss program). Any situation (exercise, caloric restriction) which puts the body in a fat burning state will result in hormone and growth factor profiles that suit a catabolic state. In this situation the hormonal and biochemical processes are not such that anabolism occurs to any great extent.

An analogy I like to use in class is the auto plant. When Ford is cranking out cars at maximum capacity, all of the departments and assembly lines have to be working optimally (anabolic). Now say they want to remodel a bit. They will have to shut down some of the assembly lines to do the construction. This doesn't mean that production has to totally stop, just that production is not MAXIMAL. If they decide they want to totally retool (lose a lot of fat), then they may have to shut down most of the operation and production slows to a standstill. They're not producing many cars (building muscle).

In the body when you are burning a lot of fat (retooling) there are catabolic processes in place which will also metabolize protein. The body perceives an emergency situation (starvation) and utilizing all potential energy sources. This is not to say that anabolism also does not occur, just that catabolism is greater, and you have a net loss of protein as well as fat.

On the other side of the coin, during a bulking phase, anabolic hormones and growth factors are high. This means that even some calories will be stored as fat, but muscle mass increases. Catabolism is reduced and anabolism is increased.

When on a severe fat loss program, although fat may be able to provide the energy required to build muscle, the mechanisms (growth factors and anabolic pathways) are not in place to make that happen because the body is in a catabolic state.

Nice to see people thinking about things from a conceptual standpoint.

Teddykgb, man I read one of your post in this thread and I have the same problem as you. I was doing so good with my diet, 5mm skin fold on abbs, totaly ripped. When I did curls it seemed like you could see every vein in my arm, it was great. Well, along comes Christmas. I said to meyself “it’s the holladays I can have a couple of oreo cookies”…Well a few cookies turned into a hole bag of oreo’s, a half gallon of moosetracks ice cream, one whole jacks pizza, and a wole tub of cheese cake flavored cream cheese! Well that eating binge endend up lasting untill Jan 19 and now I am a big fat pig(10mm on abbs as of 1-19). I now wont go to the gym and have to train at home cuz I am so ashamed of myself.

I guess I have to start all over again. I have been on fat fast for 5 days now and my abb's are down to 8mm Already. While thats good and all I think that I have lost some muscle to even though I am using Finasol. Strange because my strength is still the same but I lost about 14 pounds and that don't jive with the amount of fat that have lost. I don't know what the fuck to do any more...

Brian

Brian:

Remember that when you deplete your carb stores, you lose the glycogen that is stored in the muscle. Along with this glycogen is a lot of water, so some of the weight you have lost is water and glycogen (could be 5-10 lbs depending). When you start eating carbs again this will come back. So, there is good news and bad news. The bad news is that for practical purposes you haven’t lost 14 lbs, because some of that will come back when you eat carbs again. The good news is that if you are taking skinfolds (objectively) and have lost fat, you’ve lost fat. If your strength isn’t down you probably haven’t lost much contractile protein in the muscle. Now quit wallowing in self pity and go to the gym or it will only get worse.


I’ve been there dude.

Hey Man, This is the most common question that I have been asked. First, if your body fat is 5-6%, I’m not sure you can get any more ripped than you are without drugs. I’ll be honest, I don’t know anything about steroids and prohormones but from what I know from my physiology background (which is limited), to gain signifigant muscle, you need an internal anabolic environment and when you lose weight your body is in a catabolic state. Also keep in mind that your body responds best to shock. So my solution? Cycle. Your body fat is low, so for 2-3 weeks, increase your caloric intake and supplement with ZMA and Tribex 500. You’ll put on some weight around your waist, but the thickness in your muscles is what you need to concentrate on. After this gain cylce, for 2-3 weeks, reduce your calories to well below your daily expenditure. The lower you go, the less time this phase can last. Use ECA stacks to increase your metabolism (MD6 is great) and stack a glutamine supplement with HMB. This creates the catabolic environment to lose weight, and the anti-catabolic supplements help retain the Lean Mass you’ve gained. Be aggressive in the weight loss cycle. Try the ECA right after your work out as well as befor, and don’t skimp on the glutamine. Hopefully, you gain 5 lbs. in the gain phase (3 lbs. muscle, 2 lbs. fat) then lose 3 lbs. in your weight loss phase (1 lbs. muscle, 2 lbs.fat). Your net gain is 2 lbs of muscle! It works, but their will be some trial and error involved. It might sound expensive, but it’s safer than drugs and I suspect cheaper. Pretty basic. Just keep it simple and remember that change is good.
Let me know what you think.

Stevie Mac…thanks for the analogy, buddy. It does make sense to me for the most part. I had the general idea, but I just did not understand how some people could gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. However, I think that my concern was in gaining size and weight, which can only be done in the anabolic or positive caloric balance. It now seems apparent to me that trainees can gain muscle mass and lose fat, albeit at generally the same rate so that bodyweight does not fluctuate. It is evident that only in situations where the body has enough fat stores to provide for the “starvation” mode that it can still build muscle. I do not know what that level of bodyfat may be, but that is how I see it anyway.

Brian V...ain't that a bitch! If you read my earlier post from the BFL and Bill Phillips days, you'll know that I was in the same position, except it was every single week! I could not be dragged out of the kitchen away from all those delicious carbs with a crane! I would feast until the time I slept, including the time in bed it took me to fall asleep. It was crazy, but every time I get the desire to defuel my body with such empty calories I just think how terrible I felt the next day or two days afterward, mentally and physically. Now, like my boy, Stevie Mac, says get your arse back to the gym and sport that 6-pack at 5% again, bro!

Rob...thanks for the insight. I see your point, and I am a fond believer in cycling calories. Your approach seems very valid and is something that I am actually considering applying in the coming weeks. Traditionally, I have even cycled my calories on a daily basis. For example, your body really does not need the same number of calories on a non-training day as it otherwise would (unless of course your activity level compensates). That is why I normally try to spread my calories out not only evenly throughout the day but more precisely for my activity level. If I'm going to be walking to campus and across campus in the next three hours then I'll need more grub than if I'll be sitting at the library studying. As far as the cycling as you've outlined, would you recommend the Delta 1250 or something else? Also, what field are you in as you mentioned that this was a question you're asked on a regular basis? Thanks a bunch, bud.

I don’t know if any of you saw this but in an old issue of Muscle Media (when the late Dan D. still wrote for them), someone wrote him asking how to set up a plan on building mass and losing fat at the same time. Duchaine’s plan of attack was like a much more detailed ABCDE, I don’t have the article w. me so I’ll have to go by memory. For the diet phase, you did daily aerobics for 30 min. at no higher than 85% of max, carbs were no more than 30 % of daily cals, and you did high reps and short rest weight workouts (GBC for ex.). He also recommended ECA obviously, as well as a phosphate supplement to possibly keep T3 levels up. Anyway you kept doing this until your morning body temp dropped a certain amount (can’t remember but I can get it tomorrow if anyone’s interested). Then, you switch to a mass phase using no more than 40% of your cals from carbs so you’re basically at a Zone/Isocaloric level. No cardio, heavier weights and lower reps, and the key was to watch your ab skinfold. When it increased anywhere from 1-2 mm. you go back to the diet phase. The thing you have to watch closely is your carb percentage as if you go higher you will hold extra water, which will bloat the skin and distort your ab measurement. Additional things he recommended in other places that might help are to take a 1/2 hr. nap after workouts (GH response maybe, not to mention recovery), and maybe even doing 2x/day workouts during the mass phase so you can take advantage of two post-workout meals and store more glycogen, but you wouldn’t keep this up for long periods of time. If anyone else would’ve come up w. this I would’ve laughed but we all know Duchaine was no idiot, and this very well may be the best way to do a calorie-cycling diet. I thought it was pretty interesting anyway.