T Nation

Philando Castile Shooting


#1

Has anyone seen this video yet?

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/7/12116288/minnesota-police-shooting-philando-castile-falcon-heights-video

I'm curious what you folks think of this.

From what I've read/seen, the details are-

-He and his fiance were pulled over for a busted tail-light.
-Philando Castile had a conceal carry permit and allegedly notified the officer of both this fact and that he had a gun in the car.
-The officer shot him when Philando reached for "something". The fiance claims that it was the driver's license, whereas you can clearly hear the cop scream "I told him not to reach for it".

I think it's pretty clear what the "it" the officer is referring to.

What do you make of this video?


#2

Terrible. Officer needs to charged. Immediately.

You can shout anything you want for the camera but that doesn't make it true.

Castile may have been doing something unwise, but he did not deserve to get shot. I have no sympathy for the cop.


#3

"You can shout anything you want for the camera but that doesn't make it true."

I agree, and it applies to everyone.

The video starts AFTER he was shot... Don't you think what led up to him being shot is at least relevant to why he was shot?

Is it possible that Castile was drawn down on after the cop saw the gun? Did the cop even ask him for his license?

If you had a gun pointed at you and someone told you not to reach for your license would you still go reaching for it? How do we know he was reaching for his license? Did he say it, or did his fiancé assume he was? I still don't know why someone would reach for their license after being told not to with a gun in their face.

If you were the cop dealing with a known armed person and you told him not to reach for anything, what would you do when he started reaching for things against your instruction? Once he told you he had a permit, would you take him at his word and re-holster your gun and just go about the rest of the traffic stop? Adding to that, does a permit somehow render the gun ineffective for illegal purposes?

There's a lot we don't know about the shooting and jumping to these conclusions based on a video that didn't even capture the event is pretty careless. The video is disturbing, but it doesn't prove anything.


#4

A person with a concealed carry permit is the least likely person to be drawing down on a cop for a traffic stop. Especially with an innocent girlfriend and someone in the back seat. And especially if they TELL THE COP they have a concealed carry permit. They're not trying to hide, they're being upfront. The cop did not do his job properly at the very least regardless of Castile's errors in judgment. If you can't assess a situation effectively you need to rethink your job as a police officer.

Again, no criminal record. No warrant out. Girlfriend present. Steady job. No smell of weed or drugs. No situational triggers of any kind.

And I'll tell you what, in my circle of concealed carry friends (mostly white) they are talking about this. They don't want it to happen to them--they know and I know that you should never reach like Castile did, but they also know that errors in judgment happen and they don't want to pay for it with 4 bullet holes in their chest. I'll say it again: errors in judgment happen. I don't know about you but I have known plenty of very intelligent people that have done some dumb things when not thinking or when surprised. None of that excuses what the cop did.


#5

Again, no criminal record. No warrant out. Girlfriend present. Steady job. No smell of weed or drugs. No situational triggers of any kind.

No situational triggers of any kind except for the gun on his person which may have been displayed during the stop. Another trigger was the disobeyed instruction to not go for the firearm. He was probably not thinking or being stupid, but this guy has been stopped over 50 times (that's another issue). This wasn't his first time at the rodeo.

A lot of the mitigating factors you mention were not known or are irrelevant during the stop. He didn't know he had a permit (I guess you can take his word for it?), he didn't know he had a clean criminal record (as did the Dallas shooter BTW), and some guys have shot at police with their kids in the car (see the Oregon Trooper video). It's possible he told the cop he had a permit after the cop saw the gun and aimed his at Castile.

I've read that the cops might have been looking for a robbery suspect and Castile matched the description. I don't know if it's reliable.


#6

The thing I hate about these stories is they draw battle lines almost immediately. Everyone has to have an opinion about what happened and they have to have it instantly. You get two choices, the officer was a racist, trigger happy murderer just waiting for the day he could kill a black man or the officer held off multiple threats on his life by a crazed gunman until he was forced to fire.

In this case the video starts after the incident is already over. I can't make an informed decision based on a man bleeding out in a car. It may be enough to get a trial, but I'm not sure about a conviction.


#7

I carry and most of my friends carry, and I am thinking about this situation a lot. It's hard to come to any conclusions without a video that starts before the shooting. And how fucking weird is it that his girlfriend started recording while he sat there dying? The cop seems more bent out of shape than she does.

Anyway, it's been 17 years since I took my concealed carry class, so things may have changed and I believe that the content of the course varied from state to state, but it would be great to see law enforcement talk to those trying to get their license about what to do and not to do at a traffic stop, in a mass shooter incident, etc. Basically a "here's what we're going to do, here's what you should do." I strongly doubt that this is the first tragedy of its kind.

At this point, before more and better information comes out I'm sorry for everyone involved.


#8

He was pulled over because he resembled someone from a robbery not because of a busted tail light.

No saying it is him, but it does resemble him to the degree that the stop isn't out of the blue.

He has been charged (many dismissed) for a billion traffic violations so it's not exactly as though he's green to being pulled over. I find it curious that he happened to make the mistake of reaching for his gun for that reason. Maybe that's why he made this mistake?

Either way reaching for gun in front of a cop = suicide.

Too EARLY to tell. Look how badly we were initially fooled in the Trayvon Martin trial.


#9

What do you guys think of the woman's eery calmness in his death and live streaming the incident?

My guess: she didn't give two shits about her dying boyfriend and wanted to cement her future payday.


#10

#11

Lies, lies and more lies, as always.


#12

Sigh.

And now a quick check with Snopes says THIS ^^^ is bullshit.

http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/


#13

I can respect that line of reasoning and your position on the matter. Those who remember the Trayvon and Mike Brown threads on this forum like you will probably also remember that I was more on the side of the cop and of Zimmerman (even though he was a super douche) than anything. And you all know that I have generally had withering criticism for the behavior of the BLM crowd then and since then.

I'm bringing this up because my stance on these most recent situations is different, and it's not because I have a sudden pressing need to call the cop a racist or have switched over to being a BLM protester.


#14

Right. The shit flies fast and furious with this


#15

How many of these instances have we had in the last 2 yrs? What has obama done about any of it?

Nothing.

Therefore I am believing more and more the theories about geroge soros and obama being completely content with this shit, they dont want it to get better, they want it to get worse.

Here is what I would like, a constant PSA to play that informa the public on EXACTLY how to conduct ourselves when we get pulled over. When do we reach for our license etc.? Where should we put our hands? What should passengers do?

But this wont happen because it might actually help the problem, which obama does not want.

Has there been any reform in police training?

More white people are killed by cops than any other group, and it is quite proportionate to the population. Why dont we see these stories on the news? Cause they arent as sensational, and cause it would help to create problems/tension that obama and soros want.

I live about 1/2mi from the school castile worked at, and about a 1/4 mi from the protests that happened last night. News helicopters above my house till 1 am. I cannot wait to move to the suburbs or even further out.


#16

There is no way to turn this into anything other than the cop screwing up. Philando had a legal gun and a right to be carrying it. He did not threaten the cop with it in any way. The cop panicking at the thought of an armed citizen. That cop should have learned long ago that he was in thre USA. "I'm a coward so I panic" is not an excuse and no cop should even be a coward


#17

Here we have the problem. We do have trigger happy cops. With the crime rate half of what it once was, the cops are still killing as many citizens as they ever did. They are trigger happy. But it is not a racial thing. So instead of retraining our entire police force and setting up civilian reviews broads, we are fighting over the stupid idea that cops are hunting down black men.


#18

Yes, of course because you were there and know exactly what happened. My gosh.....


#19

You have hit the nail on the head.


#20

Verne, you couldn't be further from the truth. Can you give me a good handful of cases in the millions of stops that officers make each year where there is an obvious need for retraining?

Do you honestly think that a cop wants to kill a black man, or anyone for that matter? What they want to do is put in their eight hour shift and go home to their families.

When a cop pulls someone over they have no idea who that person is, or what his intentions are. Hence, when an officer tells you not to move, not to reach for, whatever it is you might be reaching for, here's a good idea... don't reach for it!

Every cop must assume that the person, black or white could be reaching for a gun. And in that split second that a person does not obey a lawful order of a police officer (which by the way is a crime) the officer must decide depending on the circumstances whether to pull his gun, or if already pulled whether to shoot that particular suspect who is reaching for some unknown object and refuses to stop upon the officers order.

Short video's taken by biased witnesses can look bad. But keep in mind Darren Wilson was tried in the court of public opinion by the left wing media and found guilty. But when all of the facts came out he was completely exonerated. People love to jump the gun (no pun intended). But until all of the facts are investigated and released we know NOTHING. It's like watching 1 minute of and upcoming movie and acting like you know the entire story

Let's wait and see exactly what happened before we assume the worst.