T Nation

Personal Experience with HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

@KSman
regarding the verification of the HCG with a pregnancy test - how do you do that? do you just drop a few units of HCG on the stick or do you have to pee on the stick yourself after injecting HCG for a while?

You would drop the hcg onto the pregnancy test “stick”.

Follow directions on the package, morning stream of urine should be positive. Testing the hCG directly might be positive even if the product is damages or thinned out.

Update and need advice.
I have lost 20 pounds since the TRT nightmare suddenly started back in December 2017.

For the first 10 days on Clomid only (50 mg ed) I felt OK after the initial crash in the beginning.
Bloodwork after one week (10 days) on Clomid, I felt OK but had no sex drive and felt drained in the evenings.
Test taken: 09th Feb. 2018
Testosterone: 145 ng/dL (ough)
Estradiol: Not detectable
SHBG: 73 nmol/L (8 - 60) (ough)
FSH: 10 U/L (1 - 12)
LH: 5 U/L (1 - 10)
Free test index: 0.7 (2.3 - 9.9) Oh shit!

My SHBG was 35 nmol/L before I started with Clomid, and 73 after 10 days on Clomid???
How is this explained? My liver is, or at least was in good working order…

This was bad news, so I scheduled a new blood test one week later, and now I was a wreck.
No energy, depressed, tinnitus, insomnia, ed, no sex drive. Thank God I have a supporting wife!
Test taken: 16th Feb. 2018
S-TSH: 1.2 U/L (0,20 - 4,0)
S-Free T4: 17.1 pmol/L (11,0 - 23,0)
S-Free T3: 4.5 pmol/L (3,5 - 6,5)
Testosterone: 290 ng/dL (still LOW)
Estradiol: 0.08 nmol/L (<0,18)
SHBG: 79 nmol/L (8 - 60) (ough)
FSH: 11 U/L (1 - 12)
LH: 8 U/L (1 - 10)
Free test index: 1.3 (2.3 - 9.9) Oh shit!

So my HPTA is really back online, but my testicles are not, at least not yet.
This last blood test was taken on the 16th of February 2018, and I felt like a 90 year old man getting to the doctors office. I took a new blood test today, and will get the results back this evening. What really concerns me is the extremely high SHBG, and that my andrologist is not commenting on it!

I’m not feeling well at all, I know it’s only been three weeks since I started, but I barely exist.
Can’t work, almost no sleep, no work out, depressed, lethargic, extremely dry and itchy skin, no libido at all.

So, in a desperate attempt to be able to exist during this restart experiment I contacted my andrologist again, and in addition contacted the hospital with the very best endocrinologist. But there are several weeks waiting time since my situation is not life threatening.

My andrologist told me I could take 1/2 a pack with Testogel eod, while on the Clomid regimen that would not suppress my HTPA because my test levels are so low. He did not answer my questions about my sudden high SHBG.

My Clomid dose is now reduced to 25 mg eod.

Well, I feel a little better with a little testogel applied, but I’m careful not to suppress my HPTA, so my test levels are still low combined with extreme SHBG.
I’m waiting for the blood test result I took this morning, and will post them as soon as they are in.

I also tried another thing in a desperate attempt to feel better, but it hasn’t had any affect yet. My E2 is low, and I have dry and itchy skin. So two days ago I took one of my wifes E2 patches (Estradot 50 micro grams), cut it half and applied it to my stomach. It’s a four day patch, but maybe half a patch isn’t enough? My skin are still dry as a desert… and I don’t retain water at all.

So my question to you is:

  • Should I just quit this experiment and start TRT, are my testicles desensitized from too much HCG (500 IU eod for one week every month for 6 months)? Will they ever come back? I have read that some guys using extreme hCG dosages for months got their testicles back using clomid and novladex, is that a fact? I can get my hands on a pack (100 pcs) of 20 mg Nolvadex tomorrow.

  • Any theories why my SHBG has skyrocketed? Do I have some strange reaction to Clomid?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, I have edited my initial post with correct blood values and more detailed information, and tried to remove as many typos as I found…

As it stands now testes are’t functioning do to desensitization, clomid raises LH and SHBG. You went into all of this with blindfolds on. 50mg clomid everyday is insane. Clomid raised your SHBG binding up all your free T, now affecting your E2 levels.

You’re over 50 years old and you’re expected to be low T at this age, TRT is long overdo. It’s time to quit screwing around and wasting your life chasing your natural production after the age of 50. Successful restarts at 50+, insanity.

Thank you for you quick and honest reply.
Seems my andrologist has no clue!

The only reason I wanted to stop TRT was the bad experience with anxiety and insomnia after 6 months in heaven. Combined with testicle pain and atrophy.
I have no issues doing TRT as long as I can function as a normal human being, I hope I never will experience that extreme anxiety again. But it can maybe be explained by low E2.
The strange thing is, I have had low E2 before by too much Arimidex, but that only gave me high libido, joint paint dry skin and insomnia. Stopping Arimidex for one week cleared everything up.
I have never experienced anxiety from low E2…?

You need 50mg twice weekly and hold off on the AI, I had no issues at all with E2 levels at this dosage, can you imagine how my experience would have mirrored your own if my doctor had placed me on an AI?

You need to test cortisol levels before and after starting TRT, high/low cortisol levels can make things worse emotionally.

I had minor testicle pain that eventually subsided and the atrophy ceased after going from 75mg once weekly to 50mg twice weekly. My testes always pull up tight when E2 is high, my testes are my E2 gauge on the higher end.

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Thank you.
So you advice is, stop screwing around and start TRT the proper way with two shots pr. week?
Then weekly blood work in the beginning and get a complete hormone panel including cortisol, prolactin, progesterone, DHEA etc?

Another question. Will my extremely high SHBG come down after I stop the Clomid?

Don’t see why it wouldn’t given time, never seen a case where it didn’t come back down. Your HPTA isn’t responding well to Clomid, the only thing that Clomid is doing well is raising SHBG.

TRT time.

Last question today.
Here in Norway the standard regimen is one shot of 1000 mg Nibedo (Undecanoate in the US) every 90 days.
That will give me a testosterone level of a 95 year old.
The Testogel worked perfectly until I crashed, and I don’t want to experience that again!

I would like to be a little careful in the beginning, and I read that a good starting dose is 50 mg twice a week.
What type of test are the best for TRT, slow acting Cypionate, Enanthate or the short acting Propionate?

Do I need to take other hormones as well?

I’m really afraid that I never will experience a good night sleep ever again…
That disappeared on the 10th of December 2017…

Nebido doesn’t workout well for everyone as it becomes difficult to keep levels stable throughout the 90 days, Cypionate works well for everyone and has a slightly longer half life than Enanthate. The only difference between Cypionate and Enanthate is the half life difference, which is why it’s easier to get Enanthate outside the USA. It’s cheaper.

Sustanon is better than Nebido and can be injected once weekly or twice weekly.

I’m on Cypionate 12.5mg EOD (50mg weekly), no other hormones. 17.5mg EOD produced to much E2 for me to handle, will find out where everything is in 5 weeks.

I seem to be sensitive to androgens.

Blood work from this morning just came in.
Test taken: 23th Feb. 2018
S-TSH: 0.93 U/L (0,20 - 4,0)
S-Free T4: 20.0 pmol/L (11,0 - 23,0)
S-Free T3: 5.1 pmol/L (3,5 - 6,5)
Testosterone: 470 ng/dL (going up)
Estradiol: 0.12 nmol/L (<0,18) (patch is working)
SHBG: 61 nmol/L (8 - 60) (really coming down)
FSH: 12 U/L (1 - 12)
LH: 11 U/L (1 - 10)
Free test index: 2.7 (2.3 - 9.9)

Well, LH and FSH are on the top of the reference range, but that will not stick.
My testicles are responding, but not as good as before I started hCG in june 2017.
Seems that I need to jump on the TRT train in the near future, but I will do a lot more reading first…

My testicles are still aching (dull ache), mostly while sitting down.

Hi. Thank you for your answer and sorry for my late reply!
I have been REALLY down for the last couple of weeks.
I had no clue what I was doing regarding testogel and hCG.
I will take you advice seriously, read and learn as much as I can to get my life back on track.
I think I was dreaming a little too much thinking I could restart successfully.

My latest blood test was not all that bad, but of course, my raised LH and FSH will not stick.
And I also know that there is no way to add testosterone without suppressing the HPTA.

Thank you again.

Thanks. Seems that I need to find a good TRT doctor.
And, they are non existing in Norway, as far as I know.

Hi.

So, it seems that I have desensitizied my testicles from 500 IU HCG EOD four times (mon, wed, fri, sun) every forth week for 6 months, 24 injections total.

But they are still making T, but not as before.
Before HCG, a LH of 7 gave me Test serum levels of 400 ng/DL, and a LH of 8 gave me Test serum levels of 520 ng/DL
Now, a LH of 10 gives serum Test levels of 450 ng/DL.
Before that high LH would at least give me serum levels in the 800 range.

Because of all the benefits of HCG, I would still like to use it when I start TRT, but I must avoid to desensitize my testicles even more.
Is that possible, or am I fucked? Will low dose HCG have any effect at all?
I have read a couple of stories of guys restoring some of the LH response by a several month pause, then 4 weeks with clomid and nolva. Is that just bull?

How could anyone know that? Impossible question to answer. If E2 is out of control testes will never drop.

Sometimes HCG only and or Clomid even when numbers a good, it doesn’t feed all the pathways properly.

@nibble

Hey man, if you still around on the forums, did you ever sort this out?

Did your Leydig cells function come back to normal?

Hey.

Yes, still around.
After 6 months off test my LH was 6, FSH 7 and my test was around 500. But my SHBG was 60-65, so my free testosterone was low. But my leydig cells came back, but it took months.
After 1 year I started with Cyp injections. Now I use 55 mg Enanthate e6d, 30 mg DHEA in the morning and 25 mg Pregnenelone in the evening.
My test is 500 on shot day and 900 on day 2.
My SHBG is now stable at 38-40, by E2 is perfect, hematocrit stable at 48%. Use no AI, sleep well, feel fantastic, great libido, sharp, calm, positive etc.
TRT is the best thing I have done, but it took a while to get dialed in.
Contacted the metabolic doc, he helped me het dialed in. Fantastic doctor!

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@nibble: Hvordan går behandlingen nå som Purvis er tvangspensjonert?:slightly_smiling_face: