T Nation

Permanent Damage/Shutdown?

Hey Guys,
Its been awhile since I last posted, but I am in need of your knowledge. I ran a 4 week OT and Var cycle about 6 weeks ago and followed that by a month long pct with Nolva 40mg for two weeks and then Nolva 20mg for another two weeks. Ever since that cycle, I cant get an erection as hard or for as long as I could before the cycle.

I’ve tried taking 0.25mg Adex a couple times to see if that would do anything, but that would only temporarily make them harder and longer, but it would go back to the previous state after a day or two. Anyone with similar experiences or suggestions?

How old are you?

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IMO part of your problem is all those bloody serms and AI you were doing post cycle.

There was no need to do them. Var and tbol don’t even aromatise, and nolva mimics a estrogen, besides that fact you used Adex which down regulates the ER, yet you still have nolva in you system which can act like a weak estrogen - you get the picture?? overly sensitive estrogen receptors, and a weak estrogen in your system.

you have two choices here to fix yourself - both include cold turkey off the adex and the nolva.

either cold turkey it and use cialis untill things return to normal.

or test taper time.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
or test taper time.[/quote]

For a little more clarity. Do you mean he should use say 75mg of test for a short time and taper off that? or?

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Pris, wouldn’t the use of an AI, upregulate the ER, due to there being ultra-low levels of E, leading to increased sensitivity at the receptor?

Just checking :wink:

Bushy[/quote]

my understanding is that in down regulation less estrogen receptors are around, making the body more sensitive to the effects of the less estrogen present, where as in up regulation when more estrogen is around more receptors are created, and the overall body response to estrogen - one estrogen molecule is less sensitive.

As Estrogen continues to increase more receptors are created - manufacturing a form of tolerance to the hormone to blunt it’s effects as much as it can. Please tell me if I got it wrong!
or if I am correct… afterall it’s been a few years since I had my head in a book, and you are the one presently in studies…

Thanks.

P

As p-22 said get off all the serms and he AI , i would use cialis as needed. THe other thing i would recommend is Alpha Male at 6 caps per day and rezv at max dose this combo worked well for me and i had not been off for years.

Thanks guys for the quick replies. I think the general consensus is to cold turkey the SERMS and AIs so thats what I’m gonna do. Btw will taking cialis downregulate/upregulate anything that may affect recovery? Thanks.

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

Well my understanding is that as Less E is created, more receptors are created to compensate - maintaining homeostasis. This would be upregulation and more receptors equals greater sensitivity to estrogen.

So as an example: if you drop E levels (say through use of an AI), you increase E receptors over time. Then, once you stop the AI, and E levels return to normal, the body ‘feels’ the effect of the ‘normal’ E more acutely because there are more receptors.

This is similar to the effects of AAS administration in supra-physiological doses. You pump more androgens into the systam, and the body begins to downregulate androgen receptors, ie reduce their number.

Once you stop (and for me, this is the folly of the ‘cold turkey’ approach to recovery, as compared to the taper), you not only have less androgen production, but you have less receptors to bind them. You end up with a ‘double whammy’.

If you taper over a long enough period, the previously super-saturated and downregulated receptors have a chance to upregulate again, i.e. become more numerous. Then, when you stop, you might still be producing less androgens for a time, but at least you have plenty of receptors to bind to the meagre amounts of androgens that you are producing.

Bushy[/quote]

I agree. This is the way I’ve been taught that receptor modulation works.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Pris, wouldn’t the use of an AI, upregulate the ER, due to there being ultra-low levels of E, leading to increased sensitivity at the receptor?

Just checking :wink:

Bushy

my understanding is that in down regulation less estrogen receptors are around, making the body more sensitive to the effects of the less estrogen present, where as in up regulation when more estrogen is around more receptors are created, and the overall body response to estrogen - one estrogen molecule is less sensitive.

As Estrogen continues to increase more receptors are created - manufacturing a form of tolerance to the hormone to blunt it’s effects as much as it can. Please tell me if I got it wrong!
or if I am correct… afterall it’s been a few years since I had my head in a book, and you are the one presently in studies…

Thanks.

P

Well my understanding is that as Less E is created, more receptors are created to compensate - maintaining homeostasis. This would be upregulation and more receptors equals greater sensitivity to estrogen.

So as an example: if you drop E levels (say through use of an AI), you increase E receptors over time. Then, once you stop the AI, and E levels return to normal, the body ‘feels’ the effect of the ‘normal’ E more acutely because there are more receptors.

This is similar to the effects of AAS administration in supra-physiological doses. You pump more androgens into the systam, and the body begins to downregulate androgen receptors, ie reduce their number.

Once you stop (and for me, this is the folly of the ‘cold turkey’ approach to recovery, as compared to the taper), you not only have less androgen production, but you have less receptors to bind them. You end up with a ‘double whammy’.

If you taper over a long enough period, the previously super-saturated and downregulated receptors have a chance to upregulate again, i.e. become more numerous. Then, when you stop, you might still be producing less androgens for a time, but at least you have plenty of receptors to bind to the meagre amounts of androgens that you are producing.

Bushy[/quote]

Good, thanks for clearing that up for me, I had basis of the theory down, but the upreg down reg part somehow went all backwards on me.