T Nation

Permabulking

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Perhaps someone can correct me if I have the wrong way of viewing all this. For the life of me, I simply can’t understand the whole “robbing oneself of gains” thing in regards to to talk of long term bulking. And here’s why.

As I’ve said over and over agin, ad nauseum, muscular gains natural lifters come at a snail’s pace after the third year of training provided everything is done right from the start. But let’s be a bit more realistic and flexible and take into account most people stumble and make mistakes when starting out and say gains will slow after the fourth or fifth year or be so small that they will be unmeasurable, unless your scale counts grams or your eyes can visualize grams of LBM. Being that we speak of dedicated people who will be lifting for decades, what is leaning out, or even getting contest-ready shredded over the course of three or four months here and there over the course of decades of lifting going to do for long term gains?

I’m going to use arbitrary numbers for my example, but it’s the best I can do for this discussion. Let’s take a natural lifter for whom nature has deemed to have the potential of gaining 40 or so pounds of LBM.

First year gain: 20 or so pounds LBM
Second year gain: 10 or so pounds LBM
Third year gain: 5 or so pounds LBM
Fourth to seventh year: very small or negligible gains
Eighth year: no more gain

I am not talking about strength here or what can be accomplished by adding more body mass to get stronger. I am talking solely about LBM!

So, what is going to happen if a young lifter decides to compete in second or third year if he wants or just to even go on a highly restrictive, yet rational cutting phase for whatever reason? What is this going to do over the course of the first decade of training and possibly decades to come provided that we’re talking about someone who loves lifting? Granted, I’ve heard the whole “but a natty is gonna lose muscle during a cut?” Yeah, how much?! One to three pounds that can be gained in a couple of WEEKS after the cut or contest! Seriously, what will be the advantage of permabulking if we’re simply talking about LBM gains. YES, there might be a bit of a disadvantage for the guy who cuts here and there in the short run, but in the long run, if the two compared stay natural, there won’t be much of a difference in LBM gain by the seventh to ten year mark!

Disclaimers:

  1. If you like permabulking, have at it. You’re NOT “doinitrong”!
  2. If you’re someone involved in something in which permabulking aids in your absolute strength, hats off!
  3. If you like the “full house” look, that’s fine; that’s your preference.
  4. I don’t mind if you get mad at me for using an example of a natural with an upper ceiling of a 40 pound LBM gain. It’s besides the point, and you can go on thinking natty gains just continue and continue so long as you eat and lift and that a permabulk will lead to an outrageous 80 to 100 pounds muscular gain that wouldn’t have been able to be accomplished if one were not to trim down or enter a show here and there.
  5. My outlook might be wrong, but I don’t think it is. If you think something else, please explain it in a civil manner and I’ll talk to you in a civil manner. Not in the mood for further talk like, “C’mon man! You’re nuts! We got a guy here who did it! No one would say he’s fat! Why are you using the word permabulker?!”
  6. I’m a hater. Always was, always will be.
    [/quote]

Wow, didn’t know you actually had the ability to answer questions. I thought you were only good for accusing people of not knowing shit when they ask questions in an attempt to understand things better. Nothing you said here really displays a deep knowledge base on the subject (not that it was needed to answer the question) which is what you would like to appear as, someone who has an accelerated understanding on the subject.

Just curious, what made you decide to answer the question from the OP instead of ignoring the OPs question and questioning the OPs understanding on the subject, hmmm?

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

Wow, didn’t know you actually had the ability to answer questions. I thought you were only good for accusing people of not knowing shit when they ask questions in an attempt to understand things better. Nothing you said here really displays a deep knowledge base on the subject (not that it was needed to answer the question) which is what you would like to appear as, someone who has an accelerated understanding on the subject.
[/quote]

Yeah I know right. I don’t know much on the subject considering I’ve been following bodybuilding since 16 years old, been involved in lifting or some serious exercise for a long time, once came close to competing in bodybuilding, and have an undergraduate degree in nutrition, a masters in nutrition and exercise physiology, am an RD, know people heavily involved in the industry, and had a thesis advisor heavily involved and who used to write for this site. But what do I know? (I don’t even like to talk much about myself because I’m not special and don’t know everything and don’t like discussing accolades much, but I think it fits here.)

Why don’t you ask some people on here on this site, particularly the ones who know me personally and hang out with me in real life if I’m a malicious person. I didn’t accuse you of anything. I suggested you broaden your understanding of nutrition and physiology, which in turn would lead you to the notion concerning your question in the other thread that after some point over eating will only yield fat gains and that an appropriate move then would be to lower your intake, but no so much that you lose muscle. A simple answer to your question in the other thread that you couldn’t figure out on your own (not that there’s anything wrong with this) to which I suggested you broaden your knowledge base (a bad thing, right?).

Re: “What I would like to appear as.”

This is quite funny. Those who know me personally on this site (some my actual real life friends or acquaintances) know I’m NOT arrogant and if anything am self-deprecating rather than self-aggrandizing.

Re: “nothing you wrote here shows any knowledge base”

Yeah? Show me how it doesn’t. Why don’t you explain to us your views on the whole permabulking and muscular gains topics.

Also why don’t you tell me how my post has nothing to do with what the OP stated (his post is NOT bad, hence why I’m involved in the conversation).

Here’s what the OP wrote: If someone just stayed in perpetual off season mode would he end up way bigger and more developed than if he was doing a bunch of shows in that time?"

Perhaps you didn’t like the way I wrote my post, but those who know me well would know where I’m being facetious or playful. I apologize. You could’ve been more polite and said something like, “I don’t like your style of posting, but here are my thoughts…” or “Here’s where I think you have it wrong…”

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
Look at the progress zraw has made with his post contest rebound.[/quote]

do you not think his increase in cough would be a bigger factor rather than a ‘rebound’

how else do you explain gains of pretty much pure LBM and practically no fat

btw <3 zraw i am just pointing out the obvious

to the OP - diminishing returns come into play so to answer your question, no.

you cannot just increase your size in perpetuity.
[/quote]

The ussage of cough would be at its hypothetical highest leading into the show and hypothetical dosages would normally be reduced post-show.

Brick - one of the most knowledgeable people on these subjects you could ever hope to know.

Undergrad degree in nutrition, a Registered Dietician with over 10 years in the field - working for hospitals, nursing homes and in a corporate RD position. Has a Masters in Sports Nutrition. Thesis adviser was Dr. Douglas Kalman.

Has demonstrated thru his own phsyique that he walks the walk as well as talking the talk…if you sit and talk BB with this guy, you’ll get just how much history he really has.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
Look at the progress zraw has made with his post contest rebound.[/quote]

do you not think his increase in cough would be a bigger factor rather than a ‘rebound’

how else do you explain gains of pretty much pure LBM and practically no fat

btw <3 zraw i am just pointing out the obvious

to the OP - diminishing returns come into play so to answer your question, no.

you cannot just increase your size in perpetuity.
[/quote]

The ussage of cough would be at its hypothetical highest leading into the show and hypothetical dosages would normally be reduced post-show.[/quote]

True but when you finish your show and plan to add substantial stage weight, usage is going to be higher than previous offseason’s and likely precontest.

No doubt this will level out over time, but completing a first show and then looking to make a huge stride, usage is increased accordingly.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

Wow, didn’t know you actually had the ability to answer questions. I thought you were only good for accusing people of not knowing shit when they ask questions in an attempt to understand things better. Nothing you said here really displays a deep knowledge base on the subject (not that it was needed to answer the question) which is what you would like to appear as, someone who has an accelerated understanding on the subject.
[/quote]

Yeah I know right. I don’t know much on the subject considering I’ve been following bodybuilding since 16 years old, been involved in lifting or some serious exercise for a long time, once came close to competing in bodybuilding, and have an undergraduate degree in nutrition, a masters in nutrition and exercise physiology, am an RD, know people heavily involved in the industry, and had a thesis advisor heavily involved and who used to write for this site. But what do I know? (I don’t even like to talk much about myself because I’m not special and don’t know everything and don’t like discussing accolades much, but I think it fits here.)

Why don’t you ask some people on here on this site, particularly the ones who know me personally and hang out with me in real life if I’m a malicious person. I didn’t accuse you of anything. I suggested you broaden your understanding of nutrition and physiology, which in turn would lead you to the notion concerning your question in the other thread that after some point over eating will only yield fat gains and that an appropriate move then would be to lower your intake, but no so much that you lose muscle. A simple answer to your question in the other thread that you couldn’t figure out on your own (not that there’s anything wrong with this) to which I suggested you broaden your knowledge base (a bad thing, right?).

Re: “What I would like to appear as.”

This is quite funny. Those who know me personally on this site (some my actual real life friends or acquaintances) know I’m NOT arrogant and if anything am self-deprecating rather than self-aggrandizing.

Re: “nothing you wrote here shows any knowledge base”

Yeah? Show me how it doesn’t. Why don’t you explain to us your views on the whole permabulking and muscular gains topics. [/quote]

Shocking to hear that you made it through any form of schooling with such poor reading comprehension. I said that nothing you said displayed a deep knowledge base (not that it was needed to answer the question)…soooo nice try.

My main point is this, I’m sure you’re educated and know what you’re talking about. Especially given that, why couldn’t you have just answered my question in that thread #1 instead of focusing on what I don’t know.

It pisses me off cause its everywhere on this site, unnecessary personal attacks instead of focusing on the topic. I legitametly wanted to learn something, and it’s hard to type in a scenario into the google search bar and get a reasonable response.

I don’t know a great deal on the subject, that’s why I fucking started a thread with a question, to learn a little.

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

Wow, didn’t know you actually had the ability to answer questions. I thought you were only good for accusing people of not knowing shit when they ask questions in an attempt to understand things better. Nothing you said here really displays a deep knowledge base on the subject (not that it was needed to answer the question) which is what you would like to appear as, someone who has an accelerated understanding on the subject.
[/quote]

Yeah I know right. I don’t know much on the subject considering I’ve been following bodybuilding since 16 years old, been involved in lifting or some serious exercise for a long time, once came close to competing in bodybuilding, and have an undergraduate degree in nutrition, a masters in nutrition and exercise physiology, am an RD, know people heavily involved in the industry, and had a thesis advisor heavily involved and who used to write for this site. But what do I know? (I don’t even like to talk much about myself because I’m not special and don’t know everything and don’t like discussing accolades much, but I think it fits here.)

Why don’t you ask some people on here on this site, particularly the ones who know me personally and hang out with me in real life if I’m a malicious person. I didn’t accuse you of anything. I suggested you broaden your understanding of nutrition and physiology, which in turn would lead you to the notion concerning your question in the other thread that after some point over eating will only yield fat gains and that an appropriate move then would be to lower your intake, but no so much that you lose muscle. A simple answer to your question in the other thread that you couldn’t figure out on your own (not that there’s anything wrong with this) to which I suggested you broaden your knowledge base (a bad thing, right?).

Re: “What I would like to appear as.”

This is quite funny. Those who know me personally on this site (some my actual real life friends or acquaintances) know I’m NOT arrogant and if anything am self-deprecating rather than self-aggrandizing.

Re: “nothing you wrote here shows any knowledge base”

Yeah? Show me how it doesn’t. Why don’t you explain to us your views on the whole permabulking and muscular gains topics. [/quote]

Shocking to hear that you made it through any form of schooling with such poor reading comprehension. I said that nothing you said displayed a deep knowledge base (not that it was needed to answer the question)…soooo nice try.

My main point is this, I’m sure you’re educated and know what you’re talking about. Especially given that, why couldn’t you have just answered my question in that thread #1 instead of focusing on what I don’t know.

It pisses me off cause its everywhere on this site, unnecessary personal attacks instead of focusing on the topic. I legitametly wanted to learn something, and it’s hard to type in a scenario into the google search bar and get a reasonable response.

I don’t know a great deal on the subject, that’s why I fucking started a thread with a question, to learn a little.
[/quote]

Where did I attack you? Care to post it?

[quote]carbiduis wrote:
[

I don’t know a great deal on the subject, that’s why I fucking started a thread with a question, to learn a little.
[/quote]

I see what you’re saying and I apologize for the way I responded in your thread in the Nutr & supps section. I should’ve been more detailed. I didn’t mean it as an attack. It’s just some posts indicate that the person really needs more understanding of nutrition as a whole. And by gaining that knowledge, they will be more competent in designing diets for themselves and their goals.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:
[

I don’t know a great deal on the subject, that’s why I fucking started a thread with a question, to learn a little.
[/quote]

I see what you’re saying and I apologize for the way I responded in your thread in the Nutr & supps section. I should’ve been more detailed. I didn’t mean it as an attack. It’s just some posts indicate that the person really needs more understanding of nutrition as a whole. And by gaining that knowledge, they will be more competent in designing diets for themselves and their goals. [/quote]

Ok great.

I actually first asked my friend who has been the MN state pl champ for the past couple years. He said he didn’t know so I thought it was a formidable question (not that nutrition/diet is his forte)…either way I feel my question was right inline with this thread…anyway, carry on

the estrogen levels in this thread…

TOO DAMN HIGH