T Nation

Periodization

I’ve lifted weights pretty seriously for two baseball offseasons now, but a part I still suck at is how to make the transistion from lifting heavy weights to building power. This offseason my plan is to do start with Rippetoe’s Starting Strength because of it’s simple design, use of compound movements, and the strength gains that can be carried over to sport specific situations.

The next phase is what I’m having trouble with.

In the past, I’ve been able to get by, by doing power cleans and that’s pretty much it. But, I have no interest in just getting by anymore, I know the focal points of next year are going to be:

  • Clean and Jerks
  • Snatches
  • Bent Press
  • Sprints
    For lack of a better word, I’ll call these the ME movements, so that would lead to the assistance being:
  • Medicine Ball Work
  • Plyos
  • Olympic Squats
  • Military Press

Now that I have established this, I have no idea how to incorporate it together, or if I’m using it correctly. I’ve been reading the Vert/Speed thread, but I’m still trying to apply what I’ve learned. After I learn how to apply this I should be safe.

My periodization for the two programs, after I figure out how to set up the second phase, will be Rippetoe’s from September - November, and the more “Power” olympic style phase will be from December - February. Proper deloading methods will be taken to prevent injury, so I think sticking with a program for 3 months in a row should be safe.

Anyone even have a starting point?

[quote]WildcatBaseball wrote:
I’ve lifted weights pretty seriously for two baseball offseasons now, but a part I still suck at is how to make the transistion from lifting heavy weights to building power. This offseason my plan is to do start with Rippetoe’s Starting Strength because of it’s simple design, use of compound movements, and the strength gains that can be carried over to sport specific situations.

The next phase is what I’m having trouble with.

In the past, I’ve been able to get by, by doing power cleans and that’s pretty much it. But, I have no interest in just getting by anymore, I know the focal points of next year are going to be:

  • Clean and Jerks
  • Snatches
  • Bent Press
  • Sprints
    For lack of a better word, I’ll call these the ME movements, so that would lead to the assistance being:
  • Medicine Ball Work
  • Plyos
  • Olympic Squats
  • Military Press

Now that I have established this, I have no idea how to incorporate it together, or if I’m using it correctly. I’ve been reading the Vert/Speed thread, but I’m still trying to apply what I’ve learned. After I learn how to apply this I should be safe.

My periodization for the two programs, after I figure out how to set up the second phase, will be Rippetoe’s from September - November, and the more “Power” olympic style phase will be from December - February. Proper deloading methods will be taken to prevent injury, so I think sticking with a program for 3 months in a row should be safe.[/quote]

I don’t agree with how you threw those exercises into “ME” and assistance, but they are useful movements nonetheless. I am not familiar with the program you mention but it sounds like an olympic lifting program, which you shouldn’t be using. More info is needed about your training level/experience, and actual goals.

Also, 3 months might be too long depending on the actual structure of it and how you respond to it.

My training experience is, I’ve lifted in the offseason for baseball for three years now, but everytime I do an inseason program I either get hurt or I lose all my motivation to play and lift, so I need to stop lifting. In the past I have done Starr’s 5x5, WS4SB, and a school made football program that contributed to a left shoulder seperation.

I have begun to work with a baseball coach of mine on a 1 on 1 basis to reteach proper mechanics after I had irritation in my right labrum. These two injuries are also the extent of my injury history.

My goals on the track and in the weight room are to:

  • Run a 6.5 60 yd. dash time (At 6.9 now)
  • Squat 1.5x bw ATG
  • Deadlift 300
  • Power Clean 175
  • Snatch my bw
  • Gain 15 lbs
  • Develop a powerful core

On the baseball field my goals are to:

  • Hit .400 (hit .600 last year on JV)
  • Be able to long toss 200 feet
  • Maintain a healthy shoulder girdle (both shoulders)

Why shouldn’t I use olympic movements to progress toward my goals?

The grouping of ME and assistance was very bad, so I’m just going to make a list of things that will help me get to my goals:

  • Sprints
  • Squats
  • Olympic Movements
  • Deadlifts
  • Pulls/Chins
  • Medicine Ball movements

A 6.5 60 will impress scouts, and is a pretty good gauge of range in the outfield, but you really need to do runs with a 90 degree turn to maximize performance. Also, in beating out infield hits, the first 10 yards is critical because if you get out fast, you really put the pressure on the fielder to make the play.

As for the 60, it looks like you are very weak for your speed.

Cleans with 135-155 are basically worthless to you because you should be aiming for a 350-400 squat and a 225-240 clean would be comparable. In other words, you are probably not strong enough to benifit as much from cleans.

I don’t see a benefit of ATG squats specifically for baseball. I would focus on two power moves.

  1. Parallel, wide stance box squats. Have you read any of the Westside articles on bx squatting? There is no bounce. Slow and controlled down to the box, relax the glutes and hams and explode.

ATG speed squats are bad because you will get into a decelleration phase and train your body not to fully extend, but you need hip and ham strength.

Only do doubles. Start with 135 and see if you can get to a point where you just pop it up. Then keep adding 10 pounds and find out what weight you lose your pop at.

  1. Fast snatch grip deadlifts If you have access to rubber weights, start by deadlifting a weight, say 185 with a snatch grip. Lower yourself but don’t touch the ground then jump up off the ground, but release the weight and let it fall on its own.

For “core” I also recommend full contact twists, but just with a dumbell.

And glute ham raises.

Mertdawg, so my plan is to use those two power movements you described and place them into my Rippetoe’s program instead of doing ATG squats and traditional DL’s, and then carry them over into the next phase. I think this should work well.

For further core development, in the second phase, I’ve read a lot about overhead squats, and I think these would be beneficial. I think I’m going to re-write the first part of my workout on here later which is a variation of Rippetoe’s for an athlete that I have created.

I really didn’t want to mess with the setup, but if it’s better for the goals I’m looking to achieve then I will do it.

Also, thank you for acknowledging that 6.5 is a good time that will turn heads. Nearly everyone I talk to online ignores what a good time is and spews at the mouth about how much more important proper baserunning is.

I realize that proper baserunning is important and it is a skill that many of my coaches and other coaches and scouts have told me that I have.

Overhead squats can work fine, but some people, maybe more than half, will move toward shoulder impingement with straight overhead movements. If you are at risck for this-possibly indicated by partial shoulder separation, then you should only do these with a wide grip.

Also, a good shoulder exercise is Reeves deadlifts-but should be done starting with only 95 pounds. Do a search for them. They helped me recover from some instability issues pretty fast. Perform a rep, and shrug at the top and then un-shrug and let the bar really stretch you out. It’s not a back or leg exercise.

How is your hip flexibility?

Lastly, for throwing, look for exercises that work on pulling in the scapula. Pushup shrugs, and Cuban raises work well here. Pushup shrugs were shown on the last “exercises you’ve never tried” article about 2 weeks ago. They really help for shoulder stability as well.

The “core” work will help your throwing as well.

For the 2 power exercises I mentioned, I would do sets of only 1-2 on the squat and on the dead your should pause for 15-30 seconds between reps. 25 total reps max however you break them down and you can add weight after your first work set, but don’t add weight to the point where the lift becomes grindingly slow-most of the time. Every 3-4 workout you can go heavier, into the slow rep range.

[quote]WildcatBaseball wrote:
Mertdawg, so my plan is to use those two power movements you described and place them into my Rippetoe’s program instead of doing ATG squats and traditional DL’s, and then carry them over into the next phase. I think this should work well.

For further core development, in the second phase, I’ve read a lot about overhead squats, and I think these would be beneficial. I think I’m going to re-write the first part of my workout on here later which is a variation of Rippetoe’s for an athlete that I have created.

I really didn’t want to mess with the setup, but if it’s better for the goals I’m looking to achieve then I will do it.

Also, thank you for acknowledging that 6.5 is a good time that will turn heads. Nearly everyone I talk to online ignores what a good time is and spews at the mouth about how much more important proper baserunning is.

I realize that proper baserunning is important and it is a skill that many of my coaches and other coaches and scouts have told me that I have.[/quote]

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
A 6.5 60 will impress scouts, and is a pretty good gauge of range in the outfield, but you really need to do runs with a 90 degree turn to maximize performance. Also, in beating out infield hits, the first 10 yards is critical because if you get out fast, you really put the pressure on the fielder to make the play.

As for the 60, it looks like you are very weak for your speed.

Cleans with 135-155 are basically worthless to you because you should be aiming for a 350-400 squat and a 225-240 clean would be comparable. In other words, you are probably not strong enough to benifit as much from cleans.

I don’t see a benefit of ATG squats specifically for baseball. I would focus on two power moves.

  1. Parallel, wide stance box squats. Have you read any of the Westside articles on bx squatting? There is no bounce. Slow and controlled down to the box, relax the glutes and hams and explode.

ATG speed squats are bad because you will get into a decelleration phase and train your body not to fully extend, but you need hip and ham strength.

Only do doubles. Start with 135 and see if you can get to a point where you just pop it up. Then keep adding 10 pounds and find out what weight you lose your pop at.

  1. Fast snatch grip deadlifts If you have access to rubber weights, start by deadlifting a weight, say 185 with a snatch grip. Lower yourself but don’t touch the ground then jump up off the ground, but release the weight and let it fall on its own.

For “core” I also recommend full contact twists, but just with a dumbell.

And glute ham raises. [/quote]

I could open a large can of worms here and say that the power movements he should be doing are olympic lifts/med ball stuff/ploys and NOT box squats. the fact that you say cleans won’t be beneficial to him baffles me. ATG squats (preferably front) are a necessity. He should focus on unilateral stuff as well.

[quote]WildcatBaseball wrote:
My training experience is, I’ve lifted in the offseason for baseball for three years now, but everytime I do an inseason program I either get hurt or I lose all my motivation to play and lift, so I need to stop lifting. In the past I have done Starr’s 5x5, WS4SB, and a school made football program that contributed to a left shoulder seperation.

I have begun to work with a baseball coach of mine on a 1 on 1 basis to reteach proper mechanics after I had irritation in my right labrum. These two injuries are also the extent of my injury history.

My goals on the track and in the weight room are to:

  • Run a 6.5 60 yd. dash time (At 6.9 now)
  • Squat 1.5x bw ATG
  • Deadlift 300
  • Power Clean 175
  • Snatch my bw
  • Gain 15 lbs
  • Develop a powerful core

On the baseball field my goals are to:

  • Hit .400 (hit .600 last year on JV)
  • Be able to long toss 200 feet
  • Maintain a healthy shoulder girdle (both shoulders)

Why shouldn’t I use olympic movements to progress toward my goals?

The grouping of ME and assistance was very bad, so I’m just going to make a list of things that will help me get to my goals:

  • Sprints
  • Squats
  • Olympic Movements
  • Deadlifts
  • Pulls/Chins
  • Medicine Ball movements[/quote]
    You neglected to mention your current stats…and i didn’t say you should not use olympic lifts, i just meant to keep in perspective that you are not training for olympic lifting, nor powerlifting. For power, I favor the olympic lifts over the box squat which this other guy is recommending.

[quote]bruinsdmb wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
A 6.5 60 will impress scouts, and is a pretty good gauge of range in the outfield, but you really need to do runs with a 90 degree turn to maximize performance. Also, in beating out infield hits, the first 10 yards is critical because if you get out fast, you really put the pressure on the fielder to make the play.

As for the 60, it looks like you are very weak for your speed.

Cleans with 135-155 are basically worthless to you because you should be aiming for a 350-400 squat and a 225-240 clean would be comparable. In other words, you are probably not strong enough to benifit as much from cleans.

I don’t see a benefit of ATG squats specifically for baseball. I would focus on two power moves.

  1. Parallel, wide stance box squats. Have you read any of the Westside articles on bx squatting? There is no bounce. Slow and controlled down to the box, relax the glutes and hams and explode.

ATG speed squats are bad because you will get into a decelleration phase and train your body not to fully extend, but you need hip and ham strength.

Only do doubles. Start with 135 and see if you can get to a point where you just pop it up. Then keep adding 10 pounds and find out what weight you lose your pop at.

  1. Fast snatch grip deadlifts If you have access to rubber weights, start by deadlifting a weight, say 185 with a snatch grip. Lower yourself but don’t touch the ground then jump up off the ground, but release the weight and let it fall on its own.

For “core” I also recommend full contact twists, but just with a dumbell.

And glute ham raises.

I could open a large can of worms here and say that the power movements he should be doing are olympic lifts/med ball stuff/ploys and NOT box squats. the fact that you say cleans won’t be beneficial to him baffles me. ATG squats (preferably front) are a necessity. He should focus on unilateral stuff as well. [/quote]

I’m not against the olympic lifts, but he’s aiming for a 175 power clean. I just don’t think he is strong enough compared to his (good) speed. If he can do a fast snatch grip pull with 205 I think he’d bring up his strength as well. If he was squatting 400 and only doing 155 cleans, then OK, he’s got a lot of progress to make there, but his clean is already in proportion to his strenght and his strength seems to be lacking to me.

I think if he does fast clean pulls and box squats for 6 weeks he could walk in and clean 185 on the spot.

[quote]bruinsdmb wrote:
You neglected to mention your current stats…and i didn’t say you should not use olympic lifts, i just meant to keep in perspective that you are not training for olympic lifting, nor powerlifting. For power, I favor the olympic lifts over the box squat which this other guy is recommending.
[/quote]

My current stats:
Age: 16
Height: 5’11"
Weight: 165 lbs.
Bats: R, Throws: R
Parallel Squat: 225x5
Deadlift: 230x5
Clean: 140
Snatch: Haven’t perfected the form yet
60 yd dash time: 6.9
30 yd dash time: 4.0
Arm strength for throwing: Mediocre
Injury history: Seperated left shoulder, irritated labrum in right shoulder, both problems have been resolved for now

This is what I planned for the first phase of my workout:

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Power Cleans

This doesn’t include warmup sets

This would be done on a M/W/F split, and I would insert baseball specific work on Workout “A” days. Baseball specific work means I will be doing long toss, hitting, or something else. Every Workout “B” day I will be doing sprints that will progress into me being in top shape for a showcase in either December or January.

All of these ideas are very open to adjustment.

[quote]WildcatBaseball wrote:
This is what I planned for the first phase of my workout:

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Power Cleans

This doesn’t include warmup sets

This would be done on a M/W/F split, and I would insert baseball specific work on Workout “A” days. Baseball specific work means I will be doing long toss, hitting, or something else. Every Workout “B” day I will be doing sprints that will progress into me being in top shape for a showcase in either December or January.

All of these ideas are very open to adjustment.[/quote]

ummm where are the assistance excercises? You must be an excellent player if you are this serious and you’re only 16. Pretty sick lift numbers for a young kid. Also, power cleans come first. I hope you are doing a dynamic flexibility warmup too.

Thanks for the compliments. There’s no assistance yet because the first phase of my program is solely for adding mass as a result of performing heavy (heavy is relative here) compound movements. The simplicity of this workout also leaves time to either sprint before, long toss, or hit after the workout. The next part is where the assistance will come into play, but right now my plans for the second phase seem a little jumbled because the main goal of the preseason phase is to develop power before the season begins.

EDIT: I don’t have any bench stats because I never bench press inseason to be on the safe side and I have been trying to correct my form from bench like a bodybuilder to benching like a powerlifter with just the bar for quite a while.

Some early modifications I’m making right now:

  • Subtracting bench, adding weighted pullups
  • Adding lunges to the list of lifts I could use in the second phase

As for medicine ball, what weight for a ball would be good for developing rotational power? I have a 10 lb. ball but I’m wondering if that is too heavy.

[quote]WildcatBaseball wrote:
Some early modifications I’m making right now:

  • Subtracting bench, adding weighted pullups
  • Adding lunges to the list of lifts I could use in the second phase

As for medicine ball, what weight for a ball would be good for developing rotational power? I have a 10 lb. ball but I’m wondering if that is too heavy.[/quote]

why aren’t you benching? 10 lbs. might be a little heavy but just do lower reps for now…work with what you have. Theres a lot of other stuff you can do- go here: http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/balls.htm

You are the man, and I can’t type that large enough. My idea with it is to use the exercises as a dynamic warmup and my medicine ball work all as one. Is this OK? That is probably the best medicine ball article I’ve ever read, and coincedently it’s on one of my favorite sites, but I’ve never seen it before. Thanks, truly incredible.

EDIT: I was so excited about the medicine ball article I forgot to address the bench press issue. When I was 12 I was diagnosed as having shoulder tendenitis. Unfortunately, the diagnosis was incorrect and I paid for it. I had some pretty serious irritation in my right labrum for about 1.5 years, but I never did anything about it until last year. Luckily, irritation and a little strain was all that ever occurred, so I took a lot of time off, started doing JOBE exercises, throwing properly, and I managed to avoid all problems. I was going to go back to benching last winter, but I seperated my shoulder during football (I’m still pissed about it) so I basically just said fuck it. Now, I’m taking very slowly and I know that if bench press is part of a program I use, then my competitiveness will override the little common sense I have and I’ll try and press with all my might from the beginning. To avoid this, I’m practicing my form using just a bar and sometimes a little weight in my basement when no one is around, doing the reps pretty slowly. I know it sounds kind of stupid, but I’m not willing to risk my throwing arm, especially after having a close call already.

EDIT-EDIT: Disregard my first question about using the med ball routine as a warmup and as my med ball work, as I was clearly too foolish to read the entire article.

haha i’m glad that’s what you wanted. Robertson is pretty smart. Sounds like a tough shoulder injury…i would go with db’s if you are benching at all. Are you overhead pressing?

[quote]WildcatBaseball wrote:
Parallel Squat: 225x5
Deadlift: 230x5
Clean: 140
Snatch: Haven’t perfected the form yet
60 yd dash time: 6.9
30 yd dash time: 4.0
Arm strength for throwing: Mediocre
Injury history: Seperated left shoulder, irritated labrum in right shoulder, both problems have been resolved for now[/quote]

This all just confirms to me that you need strength based moves rather than olympic lifts right now. Your speed on the fly is fine. Your 30 time is not so great. You need more pure leg strength to improve the 30. A 3.75 is more in line with your 60 goal, and would not only cut .25 off your time, BUT is also means you are going faster at 30, and would take another .06 to .09 off. That puts you at 6.5-6.6 range. It is that simple.

140 pound cleans are not going to make you faster, and if you focus on cleans, I predict you will still be cleaning 135-155 3 years from now.

I was too slow for college (7.9 to 8.0 for 60, but I had a 4.1 30 because I was strong. I actually was a consistent 2.8 20. My problem was top end speed, because my bodyfat was too high. You don’t have that problem.

And as far as the olympic lifts, I walked in and did a 135 snatch on the first ever try with almost no dip. This was due simply to squatting strength. Why should you waste time developing your form on the snatch?

Weighted pullups can mess up your shoulder as well. Roughly half of the population was just not meant to extend their arms directly overhead. I got impingement from close grip pullups!