Peri Workout Carbohydrates

Read 'The Performance Zone’by John Ivy, it has much more scientific data and actual study results relative to peri-nutrition for carbs+protein+BCAAs.

I used to bounce between 175-185 annually (i would always drop 10lbs during rugby season). After following this book I have been able to hit and stay at desired body weight (195) for a long time, even during rugby season. My performance in both the weight room and field have dramatically increased.

I recently decided I wanted to drop 5 lbs (signed up for a 5mile run… easier to run with 5lbs less I figured). I would wake up, take some BCAAs+ Protein and run right away. The thought here was to burn the fat first thing in the morning without carbs for it to burn first before the fat.
Then most of the day I still don’t eat that many carbs except for my peri-workout nutrition. There I take about 90% of my carbs. I have tried Dextrose, Maltodextrin and Waxy… (read up on each one, and you walk away thinking the last one you read about it king), I found Waxy HDP to be the best for me, but will use the others without hesitation.

I usually just take in a high GI carb(like dextrose or sucrose) pre, during and post workout along with some protein. From what I’ve read, carbs peri workout prevent protein breakdown more than protein does (counter intuitive, I know).

I usually eat 2h before my workout a medium sized meal (big would mean Im full), 30min before a banana and a small cup of coffe. After my heavy compound lifts I start sipping on my recovery drinks while finishing off with isolation exercises.
I dont think small isolation exercises like curls are affected much by sleepiness, but big lifts are definitly.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The human body has all the “carbs” it needs stored already and that eating before/during a workout does not do anything but fill the stomach.

This can cause issues with mental focus and force production.

Any benefit one receives from a pre-workout meal is nothing more than psychological - certainly not physiological.[/quote]
I don’t necessarily disagree, but experience in the gym tells my body otherwise. I didn’t usually need pre-workout carbs for the training I was doing, but then try John Meadows-type stuff and it won’t be the same story. You basically annihilate your body every single day.

OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal.

[quote]DO13 wrote:
Read 'The Performance Zone’by John Ivy, it has much more scientific data and actual study results relative to peri-nutrition for carbs+protein+BCAAs.

I used to bounce between 175-185 annually (i would always drop 10lbs during rugby season). After following this book I have been able to hit and stay at desired body weight (195) for a long time, even during rugby season. My performance in both the weight room and field have dramatically increased.

I recently decided I wanted to drop 5 lbs (signed up for a 5mile run… easier to run with 5lbs less I figured). I would wake up, take some BCAAs+ Protein and run right away. The thought here was to burn the fat first thing in the morning without carbs for it to burn first before the fat.
Then most of the day I still don’t eat that many carbs except for my peri-workout nutrition. There I take about 90% of my carbs. I have tried Dextrose, Maltodextrin and Waxy… (read up on each one, and you walk away thinking the last one you read about it king), I found Waxy HDP to be the best for me, but will use the others without hesitation.[/quote]

I’ve been looking to try some Waxy Maize HDP but am having trouble making heads or tails of which product to buy (and which ones are HDP). Do you have one that you recommend?

Thanks.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

lol wow, ive actually contemplated getting all my carbs from fruit too. 13lbs gain since october is pretty good man.

lol i have no idea how you lift with so little food in your system. ive tried it and nearly passed out. i need like 1000 calories (2 meals) in me before i lift.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Carbs before working out made me tired and without focus. I’ve never been a fan of carbs before a workout. I mean people seem to think that if you digest some carbs an hour before training that it will be turned into glycogen and useful for that training session.[/quote]

i know it wont be turned into glycogen immediately. but with all the vitargo, karbolyn, and plazma articles and reviews popping up everywhere, i figured training high volume with some fast absorbing carbs in your system does something to promote better workouts and recovery.[/quote]
I actually always thought pre-workout carbs were more important, or at least as important, as peri/post-workout carbs, at least if performance is your goal in the gym (as it should be in 99% of cases in my opinion for long-term growth/strength, unless in some type of fat loss phase).

[/quote]

i think youre right. but the dogma was always that eating carbs, with the subsequent rise in insulin, would prevent you from burning fat during your workout. i.e. carb backloading, precision nutriton eating, poliquin theories, etc.

im seeing more and more articles popping up lately that say the opposite though.
[/quote]
Yeah it definitely makes sense that you’d burn more fat during a workout without carbs, but to me the 60-90 minutes of working out is the ONE time of day where you should be able to focus on performance… of course this depends entirely on how voluminous your workouts are, but right now I’m doing John Meadows stuff and that stuff is absolutely killer. IMO those carbs (the one Finibar I have pre-workout) really let me get through the intensity of those final sets at the end of my workout.

I think you would actually get better results (in terms of burning fat) from having NO carbs post-workout, as opposed to having no carbs pre-workout. I just read a little excerpt from some dude called DatbTrue on carbless post-workout meals. Read below…

"The first concept is my favorite eating style, the â??Carbless Post-workoutâ?? protocol, for which I give credit to my friend DatbTrue[2]. There are some rational and scientifically-based reasons for not consuming tons of carbs post-workout. One is that training heightens insulin sensitivity and consumption of carbs lowers insulin sensitivity.[3] By training and eating carbs, you are undoing some of the benefits you would have reaped. Insulin sensitivity, as stated by Larry, may not be a â??big rock,â?? but it should be a lifelong priority â?? that is, if you find prevention of diabetes, possible prevention of Alzheimerâ??s disease, prevention of metabolic syndrome, ability to gain muscle rather than fat, and longevity important![4,5] And even cooler, if youâ??re a meathead, is that you increase muscle protein synthesis post-workout by avoiding carbs.[6] If you already fast, fasting the day after you train and use CPWO will increase lipolysis and fat oxidation â?? in other words, you will be able to use your adipose tissue (fat) more efficiently as fuel.[7]

CPWO is pretty simple; you donâ??t eat carbs post-workout, of course. Instead, you consume large amounts of protein and (depending on goals) moderate amounts of fat. The carbless period lasts from 5 to 48 hours (again: depending on goals) and I typically advise eating â??to appetiteâ?? â?? in other words, you eat until full but not stuffed. This serves two purposes. One, satiety is a â??good thingâ?? for wellbeing and fat loss, because if you are full there is less chance of noncompliance with your eating plan; and two, because your food selection is limited to the more-filling, less-insulinogenic protein/fat macronutrients, you can stick closer to maintenance or even a deficit (and, for that matter, your body can still begin the recovery process in a slight deficit).

There are some major differences between CPWO and a â??ketoâ?? (ketogenic) eating plan. First of all, CPWO does not attempt to use ketosis as a primary fat loss modality. Ketosis is great if it occurs, but it does not need to â?? you can still lose fat and do great if it does not. Second, instead of randomly-planned â??refeedâ?? days, CPWO utilizes planned and targeted â??carb-ups,â?? always before some sort of physical activity. If you are training with weights, you always carb up. The day of weight training, eat 1 to 4 meals containing carbs and protein (limited, incidental amounts of fat are OK too) prior to training. As a guideline, you should get in 75-400g carbs total depending on your size, goals, and experience â?? play around and see how little you can get away with and still have a good workout, or how much you can eat and not put on fat, etc.

First, a few words about glycogen and carb consumption. For years, and to this day, supplement and â??recovery drinkâ?? companies push sugary post-workout drinks on people who lift weights and do sports, to â??replenish glycogen.â?? In fact, people argue about the â??speedâ?? of various carb sources to replenish glygocen. Replenishing muscle and liver glycogen is not necessary to induce protein synthesis or recovery; in fact, there is no need to replenish glycogen until the next physical activity session, if then.

Here are some guidelines to determine if you need carbs pre-activity. And remember, you never â??needâ?? carbs post-activity, unless you have another session hours away (e.g. during a day of competition).

You need carbs if:
-The majority of the session is resistance training
-Performance is a top priority, such as during a competition
-Your body is very inefficient at using fat for fuel and you â??crashâ?? easily (NB: if this is you, try to taper off the amount of carbs you consume gradually, over weeks or months)

You do not need carbs if:
-Fat burning is your primary goal
-You are training, but not competing (BJJ, cardio, etc)
If you perform the majority of your non-weight-training activity in a fasted state, you will improve your insulin sensitivity and ability to use fat for energy, and - if the big rocks are in place â?? will be healthier and leaner.

Here is a quick and dirty template with a few additional points:

-Pre-lifting, consume 75-400g carbs divided between 1-4 meals with 20-50g protein at each meal (more meals is better, but some people are forced to lift early, or donâ??t have time to eat more meals, etc). You should eat the last meal preferably no sooner than 1 hour before the workout.
-I advise consuming L-leucine during the workout due to the vast array of benefits on body composition, etc. [8] Consume 5g during the workout and nothing else.
-Immediately post-workout, consume 40-100g of protein only (depending on body size and goals) from whole foods or shake (this is the one time I typically ever have a protein shake).
-Whenever you are hungry past that point, for the following 5 to 48 hours, consume protein from whole foods, and zero carbs except from raw veggies. It is advisable to eat healthy fats (coconut oil, EVOO, avocado oil, fish oil, a few almonds, almond butter, eggs, butter, etc) at every other meal (amounts will vary depending on whether goal is mass gain, or fat loss).
-Before your next serious, performance-oriented activity session, or your next weight-training session, preferably the â??day of,â?? repeat the â??carbing upâ?? process.
-You will probably have better results from fasting, and over a few weeks it may become easier (due to improved fat-burning-for-fuel), if you position the fasts to be on the day following weight training."
[/quote]

i actually was thinking about this no carb PWO from all the posts by mr walkway. he linked the same think about dats no carb PWO. i also saw BBB post it on another forum saying he got leaner and bigger with just pre and peri carbs.

my problem is im sooo damn hungry PWO i eat anything in site because “i earned it” lol.

nice responses guys.

i actually bought some karbolyn that im going to mix with some BCAAs i have lying around.

1-1.5 hrs pre - 60g oats, 1 banana, 1 scoop whey iso, 2 tblsp PB
intra - 40g carbs from karbolyn and 10g BCAAs
post - still up for debate. this no carb PWO sounds interesting.

i will say one thing though. right after i bought the karbolyn i threw 1 scoop in a shaker cup and went to hit arms at the gym. the pump was incredible. i did biceps first and ran out of karbolyn when i got to triceps and the pump was nowhere near as good. placebo possibly, but who knows.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

You might as well count fructose as fat because it is not handled the same as glucose. Fructose has to be either changed to glycogen to be stored by liver or if already full made into fatty acids and triglycerides to be released to the bloodstream.

If you are already eating lots of fruit and other carbohydrates most/all of the carbs in your gatorade end up as fat.

Wouldn’t you just rather have full fat ice cream and ditch the gatorade?

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
i actually was thinking about this no carb PWO from all the posts by mr walkway. he linked the same think about dats no carb PWO. i also saw BBB post it on another forum saying he got leaner and bigger with just pre and peri carbs.
[/quote]

That’s been my approach as well for years.

S

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

You might as well count fructose as fat because it is not handled the same as glucose. Fructose has to be either changed to glycogen to be stored by liver or if already full made into fatty acids and triglycerides to be released to the bloodstream.

If you are already eating lots of fruit and other carbohydrates most/all of the carbs in your gatorade end up as fat.

Wouldn’t you just rather have full fat ice cream and ditch the gatorade?[/quote]

most fruits are actually more glucose and sucrose than fructose.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
i actually was thinking about this no carb PWO from all the posts by mr walkway. he linked the same think about dats no carb PWO. i also saw BBB post it on another forum saying he got leaner and bigger with just pre and peri carbs.
[/quote]

That’s been my approach as well for years.

S
[/quote]

yea ive noticed in alot of your posts youre a big fan of finibars and surge pre workout now. its cool to see you have some great insights and years of experience to contribute.

i do remember you were a fan of poptarts PWO a while ago though?

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

You might as well count fructose as fat because it is not handled the same as glucose. Fructose has to be either changed to glycogen to be stored by liver or if already full made into fatty acids and triglycerides to be released to the bloodstream.

If you are already eating lots of fruit and other carbohydrates most/all of the carbs in your gatorade end up as fat.

Wouldn’t you just rather have full fat ice cream and ditch the gatorade?[/quote]

most fruits are actually more glucose and sucrose than fructose.[/quote]

Sure but gatorade is not fruit and fruit is a much better option, wouldn’t you agree?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

You might as well count fructose as fat because it is not handled the same as glucose. Fructose has to be either changed to glycogen to be stored by liver or if already full made into fatty acids and triglycerides to be released to the bloodstream.

If you are already eating lots of fruit and other carbohydrates most/all of the carbs in your gatorade end up as fat.

Wouldn’t you just rather have full fat ice cream and ditch the gatorade?[/quote]

most fruits are actually more glucose and sucrose than fructose.[/quote]

Sure but gatorade is not fruit and fruit is a much better option, wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]

wow i totally misread your post. never mind lol. yea i agree the gatorade is not a good choice.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

You might as well count fructose as fat because it is not handled the same as glucose. Fructose has to be either changed to glycogen to be stored by liver or if already full made into fatty acids and triglycerides to be released to the bloodstream.

If you are already eating lots of fruit and other carbohydrates most/all of the carbs in your gatorade end up as fat.

Wouldn’t you just rather have full fat ice cream and ditch the gatorade?[/quote]

most fruits are actually more glucose and sucrose than fructose.[/quote]

Sure but gatorade is not fruit and fruit is a much better option, wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]

wow i totally misread your post. never mind lol. yea i agree the gatorade is not a good choice.[/quote]

The Gatorade I’m using has sucrose as the first ingredient. it’s the powder form. I only use it because it’s convenient (can get at the store) and it’s orange flavored, which tastes great with vanilla protein. I always find bulk dextrose/malto, but never in an orange flavor. So I figured it being sucrose wouldn’t be the end of the world lol

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
OP asked this question in another thread, but I didn’t want to hijack, so I’ll answer it here, as it’s relevant.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

whats up spidey. you still on CBL?[/quote]

Yessir. Used it to get decently lean, and now trying to gain some mass with it without getting too sloppy. lol. I’ve tweaked it a bit in ways Keifer probably wouldn’t say is ‘optimal’, but it works for me. You’re other post said you’ve started moving your carbs towards later in the day as well?[/quote]

are you doing any peri workout carbs? i know its against CBL but ive found pre workout carbs to really help.

yea i put some before bed so that i feel “satisfied” and dont get so hungry i cant sleep and end up eating anything i find. and it helps me sleep better cause of the serotonin release. plus im never hungry in the mornings, so it makes sense to just stuff down some protein and fat and move the carbs to night time meals when im literally starving and will eat anything.

and i guess the biggest difference this time around vs CBL is im using way cleaner carbs. no more sugary kids cereal and cherry turnovers like Kiefer recommended :([/quote]

Yeah, I don’t do peri-WO carbs right now, but would kind of like to. The things that I go ‘against’ Kiefer on are really the whole fructose thing. I’ve had SO much more success since making a lot of my carbs come from bananas, pineapples, grapes, orange juice etc. I tried potatoes as a main carb source recently, like he suggested, and was bloated and felt like shit… Here’s what most days of eating look like for me (depends on the day but basically this)

9am: Wake-up, Coffee + 2 tbsp VCO
11am: Lift
Noon: 50g whey, 5g Creatine
3pm: 3 jumbo eggs + 6oz ground beef, sour cream + salsa
5pm: 50g Whey + 70g of Carbs from Gatorade, 2 bananas
7pm: Roasted chicken (about 25g of Protein worth) + cup of pineapple
10pm-midnight: 2-3 servings of low-fat ice cream, 2 PB & Honey sandwiches, 2 cups of orange juice

I’ve gained about 13 lbs since late October with this, tweaking food choices and such trying to find what carb sources allow me to eat a lot without making me bloated, watery, or have bowel issues. I’ve managed to not lose much leanness so far, so I feel like my method is ‘working’ but maybe not optimal. [/quote]

You might as well count fructose as fat because it is not handled the same as glucose. Fructose has to be either changed to glycogen to be stored by liver or if already full made into fatty acids and triglycerides to be released to the bloodstream.

If you are already eating lots of fruit and other carbohydrates most/all of the carbs in your gatorade end up as fat.

Wouldn’t you just rather have full fat ice cream and ditch the gatorade?[/quote]

most fruits are actually more glucose and sucrose than fructose.[/quote]

Sure but gatorade is not fruit and fruit is a much better option, wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]

wow i totally misread your post. never mind lol. yea i agree the gatorade is not a good choice.[/quote]

The Gatorade I’m using has sucrose as the first ingredient. it’s the powder form. I only use it because it’s convenient (can get at the store) and it’s orange flavored, which tastes great with vanilla protein. I always find bulk dextrose/malto, but never in an orange flavor. So I figured it being sucrose wouldn’t be the end of the world lol[/quote]

i remember seeing some gatorade labels and they had HFCS in them. i believe thats why its generally frowned upon in the bodybuilding community.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

i remember seeing some gatorade labels and they had HFCS in them. i believe thats why its generally frowned upon in the bodybuilding community.[/quote]

Probably reading the actual bottled Gatorade. My powdered Gatorade has listed in order (I’m looking at the label right now) lol:

Sucrose, Dextrose, Citric Acid, Salt, Sodium Citrate, Monopotassium phosphate, natural flavor, modified food starch, calcium silicate, yellow 6.

I was actually thinking of adding 20g of Carbs worth of it intra-WO, but not sure yet, seeing as CBL has worked so well for me at this point.

[quote]DO13 wrote:
Read 'The Performance Zone’by John Ivy, it has much more scientific data and actual study results relative to peri-nutrition for carbs+protein+BCAAs.
[/quote]

Correct me if im wrong, as i have only read the books preface, but isnt that book aimed at the endurance/sporting athlete as opposed to the bodybuilder/strength athlete?

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I didn’t usually need pre-workout carbs for the training I was doing, but then try John Meadows-type stuff and it won’t be the same story. You basically annihilate your body every single day.[/quote]

Whats Meadows take on peri-workout nutrition again? I know it was posted here a while back but i cant find it.