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Peri Workout Carbohydrates

with all the new fancy “quick absorbing” carb powders out there for peri workout use, im just curious how many people still use good old food (oats, rice, etc.) pre workout and find it sufficient to the point they dont need carb powders intra workout.

lets assume a 60-90 minute workout with high volume, 4 sets per exercise, 6-12 reps per set, multiple exercises.

no, i didnt use the search function, im curious what you guys are doing NOW.

I don’t do pre workout carbs, but will drink coconut water during. I love that stuff.

Carbs before working out made me tired and without focus. I’ve never been a fan of carbs before a workout. I mean people seem to think that if you digest some carbs an hour before training that it will be turned into glycogen and useful for that training session.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I don’t do pre workout carbs, but will drink coconut water during. I love that stuff.[/quote]

i love that stuff too. ive never tried it during workouts though, interesting idea.

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Carbs before working out made me tired and without focus. I’ve never been a fan of carbs before a workout. I mean people seem to think that if you digest some carbs an hour before training that it will be turned into glycogen and useful for that training session.[/quote]

i know it wont be turned into glycogen immediately. but with all the vitargo, karbolyn, and plazma articles and reviews popping up everywhere, i figured training high volume with some fast absorbing carbs in your system does something to promote better workouts and recovery.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Carbs before working out made me tired and without focus. I’ve never been a fan of carbs before a workout. I mean people seem to think that if you digest some carbs an hour before training that it will be turned into glycogen and useful for that training session.[/quote]

i know it wont be turned into glycogen immediately. but with all the vitargo, karbolyn, and plazma articles and reviews popping up everywhere, i figured training high volume with some fast absorbing carbs in your system does something to promote better workouts and recovery.[/quote]
I actually always thought pre-workout carbs were more important, or at least as important, as peri/post-workout carbs, at least if performance is your goal in the gym (as it should be in 99% of cases in my opinion for long-term growth/strength, unless in some type of fat loss phase).

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Carbs before working out made me tired and without focus. I’ve never been a fan of carbs before a workout. I mean people seem to think that if you digest some carbs an hour before training that it will be turned into glycogen and useful for that training session.[/quote]

i know it wont be turned into glycogen immediately. but with all the vitargo, karbolyn, and plazma articles and reviews popping up everywhere, i figured training high volume with some fast absorbing carbs in your system does something to promote better workouts and recovery.[/quote]
I actually always thought pre-workout carbs were more important, or at least as important, as peri/post-workout carbs, at least if performance is your goal in the gym (as it should be in 99% of cases in my opinion for long-term growth/strength, unless in some type of fat loss phase).

[/quote]

i think youre right. but the dogma was always that eating carbs, with the subsequent rise in insulin, would prevent you from burning fat during your workout. i.e. carb backloading, precision nutriton eating, poliquin theories, etc.

im seeing more and more articles popping up lately that say the opposite though.

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Carbs before working out made me tired and without focus. I’ve never been a fan of carbs before a workout. I mean people seem to think that if you digest some carbs an hour before training that it will be turned into glycogen and useful for that training session.[/quote]

i know it wont be turned into glycogen immediately. but with all the vitargo, karbolyn, and plazma articles and reviews popping up everywhere, i figured training high volume with some fast absorbing carbs in your system does something to promote better workouts and recovery.[/quote]
I actually always thought pre-workout carbs were more important, or at least as important, as peri/post-workout carbs, at least if performance is your goal in the gym (as it should be in 99% of cases in my opinion for long-term growth/strength, unless in some type of fat loss phase).

[/quote]

i think youre right. but the dogma was always that eating carbs, with the subsequent rise in insulin, would prevent you from burning fat during your workout. i.e. carb backloading, precision nutriton eating, poliquin theories, etc.

im seeing more and more articles popping up lately that say the opposite though.
[/quote]
Yeah it definitely makes sense that you’d burn more fat during a workout without carbs, but to me the 60-90 minutes of working out is the ONE time of day where you should be able to focus on performance… of course this depends entirely on how voluminous your workouts are, but right now I’m doing John Meadows stuff and that stuff is absolutely killer. IMO those carbs (the one Finibar I have pre-workout) really let me get through the intensity of those final sets at the end of my workout.

I think you would actually get better results (in terms of burning fat) from having NO carbs post-workout, as opposed to having no carbs pre-workout. I just read a little excerpt from some dude called DatbTrue on carbless post-workout meals. Read below…

"The first concept is my favorite eating style, the â??Carbless Post-workoutâ?? protocol, for which I give credit to my friend DatbTrue[2]. There are some rational and scientifically-based reasons for not consuming tons of carbs post-workout. One is that training heightens insulin sensitivity and consumption of carbs lowers insulin sensitivity.[3] By training and eating carbs, you are undoing some of the benefits you would have reaped. Insulin sensitivity, as stated by Larry, may not be a â??big rock,â?? but it should be a lifelong priority â?? that is, if you find prevention of diabetes, possible prevention of Alzheimerâ??s disease, prevention of metabolic syndrome, ability to gain muscle rather than fat, and longevity important![4,5] And even cooler, if youâ??re a meathead, is that you increase muscle protein synthesis post-workout by avoiding carbs.[6] If you already fast, fasting the day after you train and use CPWO will increase lipolysis and fat oxidation â?? in other words, you will be able to use your adipose tissue (fat) more efficiently as fuel.[7]

CPWO is pretty simple; you donâ??t eat carbs post-workout, of course. Instead, you consume large amounts of protein and (depending on goals) moderate amounts of fat. The carbless period lasts from 5 to 48 hours (again: depending on goals) and I typically advise eating â??to appetiteâ?? â?? in other words, you eat until full but not stuffed. This serves two purposes. One, satiety is a â??good thingâ?? for wellbeing and fat loss, because if you are full there is less chance of noncompliance with your eating plan; and two, because your food selection is limited to the more-filling, less-insulinogenic protein/fat macronutrients, you can stick closer to maintenance or even a deficit (and, for that matter, your body can still begin the recovery process in a slight deficit).

There are some major differences between CPWO and a â??ketoâ?? (ketogenic) eating plan. First of all, CPWO does not attempt to use ketosis as a primary fat loss modality. Ketosis is great if it occurs, but it does not need to â?? you can still lose fat and do great if it does not. Second, instead of randomly-planned â??refeedâ?? days, CPWO utilizes planned and targeted â??carb-ups,â?? always before some sort of physical activity. If you are training with weights, you always carb up. The day of weight training, eat 1 to 4 meals containing carbs and protein (limited, incidental amounts of fat are OK too) prior to training. As a guideline, you should get in 75-400g carbs total depending on your size, goals, and experience â?? play around and see how little you can get away with and still have a good workout, or how much you can eat and not put on fat, etc.

First, a few words about glycogen and carb consumption. For years, and to this day, supplement and â??recovery drinkâ?? companies push sugary post-workout drinks on people who lift weights and do sports, to â??replenish glycogen.â?? In fact, people argue about the â??speedâ?? of various carb sources to replenish glygocen. Replenishing muscle and liver glycogen is not necessary to induce protein synthesis or recovery; in fact, there is no need to replenish glycogen until the next physical activity session, if then.

Here are some guidelines to determine if you need carbs pre-activity. And remember, you never â??needâ?? carbs post-activity, unless you have another session hours away (e.g. during a day of competition).

You need carbs if:
-The majority of the session is resistance training
-Performance is a top priority, such as during a competition
-Your body is very inefficient at using fat for fuel and you â??crashâ?? easily (NB: if this is you, try to taper off the amount of carbs you consume gradually, over weeks or months)

You do not need carbs if:
-Fat burning is your primary goal
-You are training, but not competing (BJJ, cardio, etc)
If you perform the majority of your non-weight-training activity in a fasted state, you will improve your insulin sensitivity and ability to use fat for energy, and - if the big rocks are in place â?? will be healthier and leaner.

Here is a quick and dirty template with a few additional points:

-Pre-lifting, consume 75-400g carbs divided between 1-4 meals with 20-50g protein at each meal (more meals is better, but some people are forced to lift early, or donâ??t have time to eat more meals, etc). You should eat the last meal preferably no sooner than 1 hour before the workout.
-I advise consuming L-leucine during the workout due to the vast array of benefits on body composition, etc. [8] Consume 5g during the workout and nothing else.
-Immediately post-workout, consume 40-100g of protein only (depending on body size and goals) from whole foods or shake (this is the one time I typically ever have a protein shake).
-Whenever you are hungry past that point, for the following 5 to 48 hours, consume protein from whole foods, and zero carbs except from raw veggies. It is advisable to eat healthy fats (coconut oil, EVOO, avocado oil, fish oil, a few almonds, almond butter, eggs, butter, etc) at every other meal (amounts will vary depending on whether goal is mass gain, or fat loss).
-Before your next serious, performance-oriented activity session, or your next weight-training session, preferably the â??day of,â?? repeat the â??carbing upâ?? process.
-You will probably have better results from fasting, and over a few weeks it may become easier (due to improved fat-burning-for-fuel), if you position the fasts to be on the day following weight training."

Hey PB was there any scientific studies referenced to back up these statements or is this all just bro-science? Reason i ask is i have been re-examining Kiefer’s CBL, which is heavily referenced, and pretty much contradicts everything that was written (although there are some similarities with his morning training protocol). Surely with such polarizing advice they both cant be right?

[quote]dudsman wrote:
Hey PB was there any scientific studies referenced to back up these statements or is this all just bro-science? Reason i ask is i have been re-examining Kiefer’s CBL, which is heavily referenced, and pretty much contradicts everything that was written (although there are some similarities with his morning training protocol). Surely with such polarizing advice they both cant be right? [/quote]
No scientific evidence, that was just a forum post by Datbtrue who has his own forum. I was turned onto him by BBB (BushidoBadBoy, as many of you may recall) who espoused the idea of pre-workout carbs as well, and carbless post-workout meals (if in a fat loss phase). Many will remember BBB as one of the more knowledgeable posters on this site (if it matters, he is England’s version of a chiropractor, and some of his clients are gigantic bodybuilders).

And then you also have Meadows, Biotest (Plazma/Finibar) liking the idea of pre-workout carbs as well. Seems like there is a case for both sides of the peri-workout carbohydrate coin (lawl).

I work out first thing in the morning so i like load up on carbs around my workout only.

Brown rice flour or ground oats mixed with a protein blend are my staple pre-workout (1 hr before). Brown rice sits better with me but tastes like lumpy shite!

50g Waxy maize and 12g-15g BCAAs during.

Vitargo and Whey Isolate after. Unless when cutting when i’ll drop the Vitargo and add an extra half scoop of Whey.

Eat meal 1 about 60-90 minutes after my workout and just chuck in some fruit with my steak, eggs or whatever.

Birds pre-workout meal:
2-3 buckwheat crepes with lemon and cinnamon, and 2 medium bananas, short machiatto and about 1 L of water.

Usually eaten 40 minutes before my work-out.

tweet

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Seems like there is a case for both sides of the peri-workout carbohydrate coin (lawl).[/quote]

Certainly doesn’t help the average gym junkie like myself. Think i’l stick with CBL for the time being.

I’ve found that it makes no difference to my performance when I eat my carbs. I keep my carb intake to the evening just because it suits my lifestyle better (can eat a normal dinner with the mrs), so if I train in the evening then I will have had some carbs (always solid; rice, pasta etc) and if I train in the afternoon I will not have had any carbs.

There is no difference in intensity or strength levels between my workouts. I think the evening workouts may take slightly longer due to having eaten a bit more and feeling kinda sluggish, but if there is a difference then it’s not all that significant.

Since I dropped all shakes, intra-workout drinks etc I feel loads better in terms of digestive health, and progress hasn’t slowed at all.

Solid food is where it’s at. That goes for carbs and protein, IMO.

Honestly, the carbs I eat the day before seem to effect my performance more so then what I eat a few hours before.

But carbs Pre-WO for me seem to be hit or miss. Sometimes they seem to benefit me, sometimes I get sleepy mid-workout. So I usually just lift semi-fasted, just with some coffee + VCO in my stomach.

I do worry I’m missing some gains from not taking in some peri-WO carbs though, just because it seems so many successful natty BB’ers do so

I just use plain waxy maize mixed with whey during my workout. It is quick and cheap(20 bucks for a tub that lasts over a month if not more). Used to use grape juice.

The human body has all the “carbs” it needs stored already and that eating before/during a workout does not do anything but fill the stomach.

This can cause issues with mental focus and force production.

Any benefit one receives from a pre-workout meal is nothing more than psychological - certainly not physiological.

i like 50g carbs/50g protein/10-20g fat 1.5 hours before my workout (I workout after my first meal of the day). This seems to be the sweet spot for me to avoid the sleepies and get a great workout.

I also drink 25-50g of cyclical dextrin during my workout with 20g bcaas. I haven’t been doing the intra carbs long enough to know if it is really helping but it does help me avoid getting sleepy to only have half of my carb intake before and the other half during. If that makes sense.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The human body has all the “carbs” it needs stored already and that eating before/during a workout does not do anything but fill the stomach…

…Any benefit one receives from a pre-workout meal is nothing more than psychological - certainly not physiological.[/quote]

While I agree that preworkout carbs FROM WHOLE FOODS won’t quite be “available” for use during the ensuing workout, actual experience leads me to disagree with this last point.

These days I either train fasted (BCAAs only) or after a first meal (that invariably includes grk yogurt & kiwi/avocado/banana plus whatever else) and I’ll estimate it at 75-25, respectively.

In other words, one of every four sessions is fueled and without exception, I can handle more volume/get more top-end sets done during those sessions in particular.

note: I put WHOLE FOODS above in caps so as to draw a distinction between carbs in periworkout formulas/products. With Finibars, for example, that sustained energy arrives fast and sticks around for a good while, love that product.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Yeah it definitely makes sense that you’d burn more fat during a workout without carbs, but to me the 60-90 minutes of working out is the ONE time of day where you should be able to focus on performance… [/quote]

This times a thousand.

While I can understand the fixation on ‘fat loss,’ I emphatically denounce it as misguided.

edit - to be clear, I’m referring to the “during workout” portion to which Andy referred. (obviously one’s actions should be consistent with ‘fat loss’ goals at other times around the clock)