[quote]forlife wrote:
I guess it depends how strictly you’re defining “good form”. For example, this morning I was doing supinated lat pulldowns, and was able to use a heavier weight by leaning back slightly instead of staying perfectly vertical.[/quote]
I find, as long as you feel the targeted muscle groups working, your fine. Even if form is off a lttle
Some people work for years and don’t know what the hell they are doing.
Some people work for months and know exactly what they are doing.
I like the theory that stone cold beginners should stick with strict form until they build a better mind-muscle connection and lean how to actually recruit their muscles instead of just throwing the weight around. Then you can break form.
I also think it’s weight and rep dependent.
If you’re going for reps (say 8-12) I think it’s beneficial to keep a stricter range of motion. If you’re going under 6 reps I think some exercises it would be hard to keep 100% perfect form (barbell rows).
Also, you can’t break form so much that you’re not even working the muscles you’re intending to work or you’re hurting something. DB Rows for example. If you can’t row the weight, hold the contraction for a split second then return it I really don’t think you’re effectively working the muscle.
To me, back work takes the most mental control. If I grip the weight with a closed grip I can feel my biceps working more than my lats/traps. If I just throw up heavy weight I again feel a lot of my bicep working and not so much by lats/traps. If however I grap the weight with an open grip, using your hands basically as hooks, and activate the scapula first before pulling and then hold the contraction for a split second (keeping the weight about 5-10lbs lighter than otherwise) I think that works the back much better than just banging the weight around.
Sidenote: The use of AAS pretty much throws the damn rules out the window.
This has been beaten to death. If your efforts at “perfect form” are holding back the weight you can use, then you SUCK at weight lifting. My first goal is to gain strength and avoid injury. That means slight cheating DOES take place. Obviously my end goal would be to handle the same weight with better and better form, but if anyone thinks the way to getting huge is to worry about how text book your form is in all cases and to never cheat a weight up, I doubt that person is ever going to get a “damn!” response based on their development.
[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
Sidenote: The use of AAS pretty much throws the damn rules out the window.[/quote]
Bullshit. Athletes on steroids are actually at a greater risk of muscle tears due to muscle growing in strength faster than tendons…which means when you see people like Ronnie who have gotten that big without MAJOR injury, then they obviously know what they are doing.
Another thing to note is that heavy weights aren’t the only thing that causes form to break down.
I’ve personally hurt my back twice; once on squat, once on deadlift. Both were in sets over 6 reps. As per my experience really grinding out higher numbers of reps is more dangerous than lifting heavy for low reps. In addition to form breaking down in the higher reps, it’s hard to stay tight and focused for the extended length of time, and your support muscles are going to be tiring out at the time your form is breaking down.
I also tend to notice more overuse aches and pains when lifting for more reps in a workout.
I think in some respects lower weight, higher rep lifting is less safe.
Lately I have been doing preacher curls with perfect form and on the last set I stand up and hammer about three more ugly reps…I think that’s a good strategy:)
Do what works for you individually until it stops working, then try something else.
Now that that’s settled.
Could anyone tell me how to ramp sets properly? I simply can’t work my brain around it.
i think you should go as heavy as you can
but obviously your form needs to be good enough to at least hit the muscle youre training.
textbook form is great for a newb, but thats really it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
BantamRunner wrote:
Sidenote: The use of AAS pretty much throws the damn rules out the window.
Bullshit. Athletes on steroids are actually at a greater risk of muscle tears due to muscle growing in strength faster than tendons…which means when you see people like Ronnie who have gotten that big without MAJOR injury, then they obviously know what they are doing.[/quote]
Good point, I was thinking about that as I hit the “post” button. I guess I was thinking more in terms of growth potential. Of course if you want to get big, strong, whatever, either with or without AAS you’re going to be doing the same things. BUT, those on AAS will still get more gains on techniques that are less than optimal compared to non users.
Either way…I rarely see a huge guy lift with 100% perfect form but I always see small guys rack their brains over perfect form. Do what makes you grow.
[quote]hardgnr wrote:
Lifting experience plays a big part in how much form you sacrifice IMO. I wouldn’t be telling a beginner to be sacrificing form when they are still learning it to begin with.
Its like kipping with Chin-ups. It doesn’t make sense to stop at 5 reps with perfect form if you can get 2-3 more from kipping. Shit like this and lat pulldowns don’t really have big injury risks, as opposed to Benching/Squatting/Deadlifting when poor form can do more harm then good. [/quote]
I like this opinion…it’s a fine line! A lifter MUST be intimate with themselves.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Another thing to note is that heavy weights aren’t the only thing that causes form to break down.
I’ve personally hurt my back twice; once on squat, once on deadlift. Both were in sets over 6 reps. As per my experience really grinding out higher numbers of reps is more dangerous than lifting heavy for low reps. In addition to form breaking down in the higher reps, it’s hard to stay tight and focused for the extended length of time, and your support muscles are going to be tiring out at the time your form is breaking down.
I also tend to notice more overuse aches and pains when lifting for more reps in a workout.
I think in some respects lower weight, higher rep lifting is less safe.
[/quote]
more than 6 and its cardio
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
A lifter MUST be intimate with themselves.
[/quote]
Three times a day plus twice before breakfast.
Oh wait, nm.
as mentioned by others, strict perfect form is great for learning the movement, after some time lifting your mind/muscle connection increases, once you can feel your target area real well variances in form (cheating) can be utilized to move more weight. cheating right requires an acquired feel.
if your connection to the muscle is shitty your cheating will likely recruit an overabundance of synergistic muscles and the target muscle will consequently not be worked as hard.
AAS users, as X mentioned, do need to be highly aware of form mainly because they are handling more weight and recovering quicker, high volume (frequent) training which oftenis a by-product of AAS use often leads to over use types of injury if not careful.
[quote]Kerley wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Another thing to note is that heavy weights aren’t the only thing that causes form to break down.
I’ve personally hurt my back twice; once on squat, once on deadlift. Both were in sets over 6 reps. As per my experience really grinding out higher numbers of reps is more dangerous than lifting heavy for low reps. In addition to form breaking down in the higher reps, it’s hard to stay tight and focused for the extended length of time, and your support muscles are going to be tiring out at the time your form is breaking down.
I also tend to notice more overuse aches and pains when lifting for more reps in a workout.
I think in some respects lower weight, higher rep lifting is less safe.
more than 6 and its cardio[/quote]
lol, I like that, If you don’t mind I think I’ll adopt that myself.
And just as a technical note, this was all well before I started into powerlifting.
[quote]asusvenus wrote:
Now that that’s settled.
Could anyone tell me how to ramp sets properly? I simply can’t work my brain around it.[/quote]
First, calculate your 7 RM and divide by 2. Perform 10 reps weith this weight for your first set. Next…
Ahh never mind.
Rows, in my opinion need to have fairly good form. I have seen some deadlift/shrug seizures that were called bent over rows. I agree with most folks on a balance between a little body english and moving some heavier weight on most movements.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Another thing to note is that heavy weights aren’t the only thing that causes form to break down.
I’ve personally hurt my back twice; once on squat, once on deadlift. Both were in sets over 6 reps. As per my experience really grinding out higher numbers of reps is more dangerous than lifting heavy for low reps. In addition to form breaking down in the higher reps, it’s hard to stay tight and focused for the extended length of time, and your support muscles are going to be tiring out at the time your form is breaking down.
I also tend to notice more overuse aches and pains when lifting for more reps in a workout.
I think in some respects lower weight, higher rep lifting is less safe.
[/quote]
I feel so much better about myself after this post. Pretty much anything over 8-10 and I start to fall apart. I’ve been working on it, but it seems like a longer road than the 6-8 range seems to be.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
This has been beaten to death. If your efforts at “perfect form” are holding back the weight you can use, then you SUCK at weight lifting. My first goal is to gain strength and avoid injury. That means slight cheating DOES take place. Obviously my end goal would be to handle the same weight with better and better form, but if anyone thinks the way to getting huge is to worry about how text book your form is in all cases and to never cheat a weight up, I doubt that person is ever going to get a “damn!” response based on their development.[/quote]
great post.
Someone mentioned db overhead presses. I did them last night near the end of my workout, 5x5. In my final 2 sets I had to cheat a little to complete the lift. I’ll increase the weight when my form gets to what I view as perfect (for me anyway). I always had the opinion that perfect form means you probably need to increase the weight -if your goal is to advance in the amount you lift or increase muscle size.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Kerley wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Another thing to note is that heavy weights aren’t the only thing that causes form to break down.
I’ve personally hurt my back twice; once on squat, once on deadlift. Both were in sets over 6 reps. As per my experience really grinding out higher numbers of reps is more dangerous than lifting heavy for low reps. In addition to form breaking down in the higher reps, it’s hard to stay tight and focused for the extended length of time, and your support muscles are going to be tiring out at the time your form is breaking down.
I also tend to notice more overuse aches and pains when lifting for more reps in a workout.
I think in some respects lower weight, higher rep lifting is less safe.
more than 6 and its cardio
lol, I like that, If you don’t mind I think I’ll adopt that myself.
And just as a technical note, this was all well before I started into powerlifting.[/quote]
lol
if you’re worried about your form, you probably haven’t lifted weights for a very long time… form should be a big part of a beginners arsenal, but if you’re actually lifting weights where the risk of injury and the safety of good form comes into play, it should be second nature… and sure, you’re gonna stray from 100% perfect form, but watch any successful power lifter or strongman compete… usually its with almost perfect form… even simple things like a set up become so routine that its second nature…watch the video of Mikhail Koklyaev doing the Apollon’s wheel in this year’s arnold… pretty much perfect form on every single rep… most of the bigger guys in here probably have better form when they lift heavy weights than they think… even their shitty form is probably better than most novice weightlifters