Pendlay on Simmons

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]
Executing form exactly how the lifters do in multi-ply gear when you are a raw lifter

I?ve been to Westside and had Louie yell at me for over tucking my elbows. He?s actually said that I needed to stop tucking so much and start flaring my elbows since I was raw. He?s also told me that I need more pec and lat work since these will contribute more as a wide raw lifter. I bet that wasn?t what you were expecting, huh? At Westside, I was told to start benching with no arch and with my feet up (like a bodybuilder) so that I could build upper body strength. This all happened last November, and at that time my bench was 90 percent leg drive and 10 percent upper body.

However, by March?after about four months of following Louie?s instructions, my bench was up 20 pounds. For the record, I compete at 105 pounds. So a 20-pound increase for a small female on the bench is huge. On the other hand, let?s compare that to when I followed what I thought was the concurrent system (without actually realizing I was so far away from what it really was): my bench stayed the same for two years. So yeah?it was not that the program didn?t work, it was that I didn?t know how to apply it.

Then there?s the squat?Everyone says that Louie wants people to squat ultra wide, but once again, these people haven?t talked to Louie. I was at the Women?s Pro Am this year, and I watched Louie pull aside my old training partner and tell her that, as a raw lifter, she was squatting too wide. Shocked? I?m not. Lou knows lifting, and he knows that squatting too wide with no gear and with weak abductors won?t work out for a big raw squat. He knows that quads play a huge role for raw lifters, and he will tell you that you have to have strong quads if raw is the path you choose to follow. Anyways, back to the story?She listened to him, pulled her stance in, and went from almost getting crushed on a second attempt to smoking a third.[/quote]

This is an excerpt from this article articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/in-defense-of-westside-for-raw-lifters/ by Jennifer Petrosino.

I think a lot of people attribute a lot of things to Westside that they heard about Westside from someone who had no idea what they were talking about, but Louis gets the credit for that some fools idiocy.[/quote]

I feel like spamming this post over and over again so it sinks into people’s heads.

ESPECIALLY this last bit here:

[quote]I think a lot of people attribute a lot of things to Westside that they heard about Westside from someone who had no idea what they were talking about

I think a lot of people attribute a lot of things to Westside that they heard about Westside from someone who had no idea what they were talking about

I think a lot of people attribute a lot of things to Westside that they heard about Westside from someone who had no idea what they were talking about

I think a lot of people attribute a lot of things to Westside that they heard about Westside from someone who had no idea what they were talking about[/quote]

[quote]halcj wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

I assume that you put this here to make Louie somehow seem foolish? Thing is these statements are 100% true when used in a powerlifting context. The Bench press is a whole body movement. Yes the chest is worked but so are a myriad of other muscles. No self respecting powerlifter hits “quads”. We train the movement, aka the Squat in this instance.

[/quote]

I believe he was trying to link back to the quote from Pendlay that started this “debate”. These seem to support the idea that Louie’s main beliefs are less likely to hold true with other styles of lifting, as Pendlay said, than with his favoured style.
I hear people saying that only Westside lifters train “Westside-style”, but I have heard Louie say in an interview somewhere that anyone training with boxes and bands/accommodating resistance etc. plus speed work is proving that his method is the best…

Just so that everyone knows, I admire equipped lifting and am not against it at all (though raw is great too, in different ways).
By the way, surely the fact that Westside lifters say that they avoid free squats and only box squat for most of the year proves that box squatting is a key part of Westside?[/quote]

No doubt box squatting is very popular there and widely used for a variety of reasons. But I said “box squatting is not Westside”. Simmons uses and has written about using a variety of other squats, some athletes doing zero or almost zero box squatting (I believe the last MMA guy was one of those) but still “training Westside”. Point is, the system is not an exercise.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
But it would be incorrect to say the conjugate method is not used by athletes the world over. Just because they don’t term things the same and don’t use bands or chains or box squats (none of which are fundamental to Westside style training anyways, even though they are all often used) doesn’t mean they don’t use the conjugate method of periodization and organization.

Conjugate methodology is a manner of organization not a list of equipment or a 4 day template or a squat suit or a damn set of bands.[/quote]

I find it peculiar when people say that the “Westside” training approach is NOT really about bands/chains/box squats/frequent ME exercise rotations. I think that is bullshit backpedalling. Of course it is. Why? Because there is NOTHING LEFT after you take all these things from “Westside” that hasn’t been done by almost every serious lifter since the dawn of strength training. “Speed” training, picking assistance exercises to work on (muscular) weaknesses, going to 90%+/PRs every week, “conjugate” training, etc. all been done. “Westside”/Loui is ALL about bands/chains/box squats/training deadlift infrequently/frequent ME exercise rotations. If people believe that those things suck, say, for raw lifters, then it is fair to say that they think Westside/Loui sucks.[/quote]

I kinda agree with this. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard someone chime in with “it ain’t all about bands/chains/etc/etc/” then I would be a rich man. But if I had to give a nickel everytime someone followed that up with what Westside actually IS then my net worth would not change a dime. I am not a powerlifting fanboy and I really don’t keep up with all the different training modalities, but the people that tell me what Westside IS are far fewer than those that tell me what it ISNT.[/quote]

Probably true, but I do believe that I did tell people what Westside is in my quoted response above. Here: “Conjugate methodology is a manner of organization not a list of equipment or a 4 day template or a squat suit or a damn set of bands.” It is a means of organizing training programming and attacking weaknesses. That is what Westside is: it is conjugate programming applied to (and I suppose you could say adapted to) powerlifting. Louie has written many times about Westside being essentially the conjugate method of training organization and periodization adapted to powerlifting.

This whole debate gets so pointless. For those of you who don’t like “Westside,” conjugate whatever you want to call it then don’t do it. Every program works, just have a plan and stick to it.

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

Annoys me to, but this debate will happen time and time again. Misunderstood concepts. Going to go workout. Internetting is wasting my lifting time. Thought it would help talking to others looking to do the same and share ideas, but apparantly pissing in peoples ears is more popular.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

well then where are the results

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

well then where are the results[/quote]

Figure out who this lifter is in the IPF/USAPL 275 class.

Edit: If I am not mistaken, Joe DeFranco uses a variation of this system to work with his so called “Athletes” and uses it quite successfully.

[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

well then where are the results[/quote]

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_strength/the_westside_method_thread

Figure out who this lifter is in the IPF/USAPL 275 class.
[/quote]

one does not prove anything. also what were his lifts before conjugate. also what are his lifts besides a good pull. if 99% of top lifters use one style and 1% use another, which is the superior method

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

well then where are the results[/quote]

I’ve squatted 793 and benched 512 at 220 and my quads and chest are pathetic, lol.

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

well then where are the results[/quote]

Figure out who this lifter is in the IPF/USAPL 275 class.
[/quote]

one does not prove anything. also what were his lifts before conjugate. also what are his lifts besides a good pull. if 99% of top lifters use one style and 1% use another, which is the superior method[/quote]

So, what is your superior method? With all of your 10 posts, and with your initial post being a misquote of Pendlay, tell us something useful.

You also subdue to my point that any system works if you have a plan and stick with it. Do you really know the percentages of who uses what?

Sh*t, go call Louie and whine to him.

Also, learn how to f*cking read before you quote someone!

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“quads are for bodybuilders”
“the benchpress is not a chest exercise”
Louie simmons
[/quote]

Did you read my post or the article I linked or do you just enjoy being ignorant?? It literally says that Louis instructs any lifters under his tutelage that want to go raw to work on strengthening the quads more and narrow their stance. Also by quoting him saying that the bench is not a chest exercise as evidence of his ignorance just makes you look inexperienced. To a powerlifter, raw or not, the bench is not only a chest exercise. Legs, lats, shoulders, triceps are all involved in the a powerlifters bench. However, did you know that Louis has his raw lifters do repetition work with their feet elevated on the bench to purely strengthen the chest more. If you don’t know all of this I think you need to take a big step back and evaluate whether or not you should be discussing topics that you have no idea about.

I don’t even use the conjugate system, and could really care less about Louis, however, people bashing one persons work from a place of sheer ignorance of that persons work is supremely annoying to me.[/quote]

well then where are the results[/quote]

Figure out who this lifter is in the IPF/USAPL 275 class.
[/quote]

one does not prove anything. also what were his lifts before conjugate. also what are his lifts besides a good pull. if 99% of top lifters use one style and 1% use another, which is the superior method[/quote]

You have not made a single comment in this article that was even an accurate quote. How about you stop trying to twist things, give the whole quote in context.

And by the way, saying you are training Westside without ever having been to Westside and trained is like saying you are drinking Bordeaux from California. Its similar, but not the same. Here is an example of someone Louis actually trained Raw, only example I could find because most of the major competitors at Westside are geared.

powerliftingwatch.com/node/23783

And then there is Matt Brown of the UFC, who his opponents and training partners all acknowledge has gotten exponentially stronger recently. That is the time frame he spent at Westside training. Do you think he is doing the same thing as everyone else?? No he isn’t because Louis is a good coach that knows enough to adjust a training program based on needs and what does or does not work.

“exponentially stronger” does not mean shit. getting a guy barely lifts(not saying hes a bad mma fighter i have no idea) “stronger”, means nothing. getting a guy to a 135 bench, even if he was just benching the bar at the start, does not make you a good coach

wow westside built my 115 bench. weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

You guys need to spend more time in GAL & PWI so you can spot a troll job when it pops up…

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
wow westside built my 115 bench. weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee[/quote]

Ok you do not like “west-side”. We get it. Offer up something you think is better to support your position. So far your 12 posts have done nothing to better your position. You obviously do not have anything to offer up other than your opinion which doesn’t mean shit becuase you are some random doosh bag from the internet talking shit from behind his keyboard as am I only I am not making incongruously asinine comments about a training system I know little of such as you are. so I bid you adieu and leave you this gem.

Yeah, I dropped the ball on this one. It took all the way some other guy pointing out that he only had 10 posts for it to click.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Yeah, I dropped the ball on this one. It took all the way some other guy pointing out that he only had 10 posts for it to click.[/quote]

The really sad part is one cannot go by post count. These trolls can post 5K posts in the get a life section about how’d they would “tap dat ass” and other crap just to get their post count higher for some false “street cred”. The inverse of that was Paul Carter, friend of Wendler, logged in here and had a low post count. Some dick actually tried to call him out for that as well. lol.

An even funnier anomaly here is that I’ve seen guys here that act like fools and have accounts on other PL forums that act normal ( same screen name, same avitar). Must be a culture on T- Nation to act like ass hats, but I digress.

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Yeah, I dropped the ball on this one. It took all the way some other guy pointing out that he only had 10 posts for it to click.[/quote]

The really sad part is one cannot go by post count. These trolls can post 5K posts in the get a life section about how’d they would “tap dat ass” and other crap just to get their post count higher for some false “street cred”. The inverse of that was Paul Carter, friend of Wendler, logged in here and had a low post count. Some dick actually tried to call him out for that as well. lol.

An even funnier anomaly here is that I’ve seen guys here that act like fools and have accounts on other PL forums that act normal ( same screen name, same avitar). Must be a culture on T- Nation to act like ass hats, but I digress. [/quote]

Very true, but when I called him out on this all ten of his posts were in this thread including his first being the start of this thread, which was a false quote of Pendlay to begin with (it was made some a forum member called 80sMediumSized in Pendlay’s forums.) I don’t have a high post count myself, just felt it was relevant in that this whole argument was initiated on something Pendlay never said in the first place, by someone who just wanted to cover their ears (eyes or whatever) and not attempt to understand any of the arguments against.

I have to work on not getting sucked into this crap.

[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:

I have to work on not getting sucked into this crap.[/quote]

Good luck with that. Let me know the secret, if you ever find it.