T Nation

Pellets and E2?

So, first time posting and I’ll try not to take up too much of you guys time.

Age: 35 Lab Range
T: 549-1471
E2: 17.6-59.9 (12-42.6)
Free T: 8.31-34.7 (4.7-24.4)

First time with HRT

For the most part this has been a god send! I read once that you don’t know you have Low T until you have high T and it is so true. But I am 3 months in and already feeling some of the old lack of labido creeping back up. When studying all the articles and threads, I decided to call and see where my E2 was and as you can see it is up to almost 60. My doc is a great guy but as many have said about Pellet docs, he wants me to just try and control it with DIM (300mg) a day currently. Getting an AI is not an issue though, and I am thinking that I want to try Adex or Arimidex form what I have read. So, my question is simply what would one suggest as better for my situation and at what dose should I start? And how long before I get my blood work again to see how I am doing?

From my reading, I was thinking about Adex at .25mg twice a week.

Thoughts?

You should try 1.0 mg/week in divided doses, then adjust after lab work. Aim for e2=22pg/ml. To make find adjustments, you need a liquid product. Tablets are really poor in this regard.

Google [ research chemical anastrozole]

Read these stickies:

  • protocol for injections - yes read that
  • thyroid basics, because you need to consider
  • advice for new guys - we need more info

DIM is like taking a knife to a gun fight, can more costly.

Thank you very much! Anything I should be aware of if the dose is too high? e.g. My E2 gets too low?

I have an appointment to get my blood work again at the end of May, so no big concerns, just curious.

[quote]KSman wrote:
You should try 1.0 mg/week in divided doses, then adjust after lab work. Aim for e2=22pg/ml. To make find adjustments, you need a liquid product. Tablets are really poor in this regard.

Google [ research chemical anastrozole]

Read these stickies:

  • protocol for injections - yes read that
  • thyroid basics, because you need to consider
  • advice for new guys - we need more info

DIM is like taking a knife to a gun fight, can more costly.[/quote]

Thanks a Ton KSman! I took your suggestions and I’ll go from there. I have read the stickes in the past, but I will review them again.
One last question: How do you know to trust the online stuff you come accross? I have been scammed before and sure I will again, I was just wondering if there was a place to do a little research to be as sure as possible.

Trust is experience of good results.

More information:
age - 35
-height -5’7
-waist -33
-weight -185
-describe body and facial hair - Athletic but never been one to run very lean. 12-15% and have a good Beard
-describe where you carry fat and how changed - Always carried it in the mid section. Just got a lot tougher to keep down
-health conditions, symptoms [history] - Low T, Semi slow thyroid
-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever - Lots of NSAIDs and Ephedrine in college. Occasional Antibiotic if I really feel like crap. Armour for slow thyroid.
– real dangers! see this http://propeciahelp.com/overvi

-lab results with ranges (These are all Pre 2/20/2013 when I started Armour and HRT with Pellets)
T4- 7.1 (4.5-11.7)
T3- .9 (.8-2.0)
Free T4- 1.4 (.9-1.7)
Free T3- 3.0 (2.0-4.4)
TSH - 2.6 (.3-4.2) Now on Armour

PSA Total- .4 (.1-3.9)

Estradiol- 17.6 (12-42.6)
HSHBG- 54 (10-80)
T- 545 (280-800)
Free T- 8.31 (4.7-24.4)

Omega 3 Index- 6.6 (4-8)

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]
Whole Foods, Gluten Free, 95% of the time. Did I.F. for a few years but now don’t.

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]
Im sure I fit in the "ruin hormones from training and diet camp from the 3 years of crossfitting and Intermitent fasting and ketogenic diet. Been away from this for a couple years and lift heavy 3 days a week (Windler 5-3-1) and some body building and a couple days a week of sprint intervals.

-testes ache, ever, with a fever? Not sure

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed
From just about never to great a couple months into Pellet therapy, to every now and then now.

After readintg the Stickies again, I have some questions about Thyroid and opinions on Armour. I also get the feeling that HCG might be a help in the labido area and why it went from amazing to simply so so in a matter of weeks.

4 weeks out from Pellet Therapy

T: 549-1471
E2: 17.6-59.9 (12-42.6)
Free T: 8.31-34.7 (4.7-24.4)

Okay, my questions.

  1. The Thyroid Sticky does not mention Armour or any other scrip? Are you against them and feel that IR will fix the issue?
    I was definitely running cold before starting on Armour and now feel warm to hot all the time.

  2. The Injection Sticky discusses HCG quite a bit and I am curious about your thoughts on its validity with pellets. I assume that since I am experiencing some lack of labido again and as you stated that Progesterone production in the testies can be shut down with TRT, that youâ??d suggest HCG. Sorry if I have that wrong, Reading, working, and taking an ear full from the wife while I type.

  3. Is there anything else in the Injection Stickie that I might have missed? If I am not injecting T or HCG at the moment and AI is droplets, I am guessing you wanted to make sure I was somewhat educated on the most efficient methods.

Your E2 is very high; what is your current AI dose and for how long? Ping me at my KSman is here thread.

Thyroid basics sticky is not meant to replace proper medical treatment and drugs when needed. It does try to avoid having Rx meds for an iodine deficiency. BTW, you are getting some iodine from the Armour. Are you iodine deficient? If you are, probably the wife and kids too.

Your waking and mid afternoon body temperatures are a guide to your thyroid med dose.

TRT shuts down the testes, hCG prevents that. Injections or pellets, its the same. Is you wife OK with shrinking testes?

Concern is for pregnenolone from the testes, not progesterone.

Everything in the protocol for injections sticky applies; except that you will have trouble dialing in AI dose as your T levels will be changing.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Your E2 is very high; what is your current AI dose and for how long? Ping me at my KSman is here thread.

Thyroid basics sticky is not meant to replace proper medical treatment and drugs when needed. It does try to avoid having Rx meds for an iodine deficiency. BTW, you are getting some iodine from the Armour. Are you iodine deficient? If you are, probably the wife and kids too.

Your waking and mid afternoon body temperatures are a guide to your thyroid med dose.

TRT shuts down the testes, hCG prevents that. Injections or pellets, its the same. Is you wife OK with shrinking testes?

Concern is for pregnenolone from the testes, not progesterone.

Everything in the protocol for injections sticky applies; except that you will have trouble dialing in AI dose as your T levels will be changing.

[/quote]

I have ordered AI and it shipped today. Once I get it, I am going to follow your protocol of 1mg a week spread out, and I will update from there. I get my labs again at the end of May.

96.6 this morning on my waking temp. - Took probably 3 min. after waking. (I have read that to get this acurate reading, you should put thermometer in your mouth when alarm goes off, hit snooze, and then get the reading when you re-awake. Any truth to this?) So, obviously below the 97.7 you suggest. I will buy an iodine suplemement and follow your protocol. Anything I should consider since I am taking Armour?

(Thanks for the note about wife and kids, that would make sense.)

Wife does not mind the small testes but does mind the bouts of low labido and occasional equipment failure. That is why I started this thread. The pellets seemed to be the answer, but after about 5 weeks its been a little hit or miss. I’m hoping that getting my E2 in check will be the answer, but since you mentioned that Pregnenalone effects nerotransmitters and overall feeling good, and that the testes being shut down effects pregnenalone, I thought HCG might be something I need to try. I have looked online a little, but need to look more.

I read your KSman is here thread and I know everyone is greatful to you for what you do, so this probably gets old, but THANK YOU!

You do not need to sleep with the thermo. Try on one side under tongue, get reading, reset and take on other side under tongue. That way the effect of the cold thermo is eliminated. Check body temps mid afternoon as well and check body temps of family too.

Also good to confirm that thermo will show 98.6 for someone.

If Armour dose was sufficient, body temps would below. Body temps are a guide to dosing thyroid meds.

The best outcome would be that you are iodine deficient and that IR would resolve the related problems. Definitely better than a thyroid condition/disease and lifetime of thyroid meds. Docs will not guide you through this at all. Iodine issues are not on their radar screens.

Tell us what your historic intake of iodine from iodized salt has been. Any vitamin use that lists iodine?

[quote]KSman wrote:
You do not need to sleep with the thermo. Try on one side under tongue, get reading, reset and take on other side under tongue. That way the effect of the cold thermo is eliminated. Check body temps mid afternoon as well and check body temps of family too.

Also good to confirm that thermo will show 98.6 for someone.

If Armour dose was sufficient, body temps would below. Body temps are a guide to dosing thyroid meds.

The best outcome would be that you are iodine deficient and that IR would resolve the related problems. Definitely better than a thyroid condition/disease and lifetime of thyroid meds. Docs will not guide you through this at all. Iodine issues are not on their radar screens.

Tell us what your historic intake of iodine from iodized salt has been. Any vitamin use that lists iodine?

[/quote]

What do you mean, “If Armour dose was sufficient, body temps would below.” ?

Iodine History:
Don’t really know. I cut out iodized salt 6-7 years ago. Don’t eat processed food. So, probably don’t get much and I don’t really take vitamins.

Yesterday’s mid day reading was 98.6
This morning 96.2

So, My assumption is that the Armour I take right after I take my morning temp helps get me to 98.6 by mid day. If/ Since that is the case, do you think I should still take the 50mg of iodine a day? I took 1/2 that this morning and will take the other 1/2 late this afternoon.

The Big Question: Assuming this is iodine deficiency and the IR could fix the problem, how do I know when to get off the Armour? I know you can’t give medical advice, you can you simply tell me what you would do?

Thanks again!

Sorry: If Armour dose was sufficient, body temps would not be low.

I like your explanation for 98.6 from Armour.

I think that your root problem is iodine deficiency.

What can happen, a real example from someone I know:

  • She [she/her] started cooking for her grandmother [GM] who had heart problems
  • Doc put GM on salt restricted.
  • She got used to cooking without salt and continued that for many years after GM died, did not salt at table.
  • Her thyroid enlarged as a result, became asymmetric and lumpy
  • Ended up in hospital twice from high thyroid levels and racing heart etc
  • Thyroid nodules producing T4, T3 outside of TSH control loop
  • TSH–>zero, she progressed from hypo to hyper

Above, her GM probably had hypothyroidism when she died, contributing to the factors that lead to her death. And her father was put on salt restricted and I found his labs after he died. He had untreated hypothyroidism.

So the physical and visual condition of your thyroid is important.

And your doc never asked about your iodine intake. Your story clearly indicates low iodine intake.

Never do thyroid labs within 24 hours following doc palpating your thyroid, or you poking around. Palpation releases thyroid hormone, T3, T4 can increase and TSH can decrease as transient events.

I am not a doc, so I can freely provide advice. Doctors do not have freedom of speech! Do the IR. If you get decent waking temperatures, try getting off of the thyroid meds and see what temps do from there. Note the story above.

I think I have Thyroid coverd, or at least I have a plan. Thanks

I recieved my anastrozole tonight and wanted a quick pointer. The dropper comes with 1 ml and .5 ml markings. I am supposed to take 1 mg a week in divided doses. How do I figure 1 mg? I found an online calculator that said it was 1 to 1 but I wanted to make sure. The box says 1mg/ml.

Also, do I put the drops staight in my mouth or in water or something?

I am supposed figure out the number of drops in a mg, and divide evenly by 4 to get my dosage for this beginning protocol. Correct?

Few Questions:

  1. I am studying HCG because I am going to give it a go as soon as I feel properly educated. That said, I am confused about the injection protocol. It says to shoot HCG in Vastus Lateralis, yet it also says to shoot it SC… From what I understand Vastus Lateralis is IM. Am I misunderstanding something?

  2. Is it okay to take AI every day or would it be better EOD? I figured the droplets and divided by 7 with the plan of ED.

  3. Doing IR for 3 days now. 50mg a day. Morning temp is up a bit, but no where near 97.7. (96.8 this morning)…
    So, how long do I stick with this protocol to see if I can get it up to where it needs to be? And if I can’t, then I assume Armour is just something I am going to have to live with. (A functional med doc I heard recently suggested trying to get your Iodine from see vegis. She claimed this is the best and safest way. Any thoughts on this?)

Thanks!

[quote]tplamonte wrote:
Few Questions:

  1. I am studying HCG because I am going to give it a go as soon as I feel properly educated. That said, I am confused about the injection protocol. It says to shoot HCG in Vastus Lateralis, yet it also says to shoot it SC… From what I understand Vastus Lateralis is IM. Am I misunderstanding something?

  2. Is it okay to take AI every day or would it be better EOD? I figured the droplets and divided by 7 with the plan of ED.

  3. Doing IR for 3 days now. 50mg a day. Morning temp is up a bit, but no where near 97.7. (96.8 this morning)…
    So, how long do I stick with this protocol to see if I can get it up to where it needs to be? And if I can’t, then I assume Armour is just something I am going to have to live with. (A functional med doc I heard recently suggested trying to get your Iodine from see vegis. She claimed this is the best and safest way. Any thoughts on this?)

Thanks![/quote]

  1. I shoot hCG subq into my stomach at least an inch away from the navel. never tried to do IM and would prefer not to- I also shoot my Test subq but into the top of the thigh.

  2. you could just as easily figure out how many mg you need every 2 weeks and divide by 7, thus giving you your EOD dosage. it’s up to you. I am doing MWF dosage but I’m sure that isn’t the most advisable as I’ll have some fluctuation in there.

  3. no idea

Injecting T in the vastus lateralis is easy to manage in terms of been able to see what you are doing. I used to do that before I got onto the SC method. There is no need to inject hCG IM.

As per the stickies, humans store 1 -1.5 grams of iodine. I suggest taking .75 grams in a few weeks as a one time replenishment, then a maintenance dose after that. Iodine is iodine. There is nothing intrinsically safe about iodine from sea veges. You cannot easily obtain high amounts of iodine from sea veges. IR for three days is not going to get you anywhere in terms of IR. However, some feel a benefit after 150mg.

Quick update:

About 2 months in to Pellet Therapy: At about one month, labido and erections best of my life. But then slow decline.

Been taking 5 drops of Anastrozle a day (1mg a week) for about 5 days. I switched from DIM to Anastrozle because a lack of Labido made me take a closer look at my E2. That said, my equipment failure seems to be getting worse since dosing with Anastrozle. I read around on the site all day today and this seems to be somewhat common. From what I have read, low E2 can cause these symptoms. I know that the fact that I am on Pellets, my AI dosing will be tough to dial in. Therefore, what should I do?

  1. Get off Anastrozole for 7 days and then try redosing at .5mg a week, split EOD?
  2. Stick with the 1mg a week protocol and get blood work done as soon as possible?
  3. Go ahead and just cut Anastrozole back to .5mg without totally stopping?

More or less, could the Anastrozole dropped me from an E2 of 60 to low enough to give me ED problems that quickly?

Along the same lines, I am wanting to start HCG to see if that will help but am having a hard time finding. Any trusty google help?

hCG is very difficult to get non-Rx and getting from over-seas is a legal problem.

Try stopping AI for 5-6 days then restart at 2 drops EOD, that will be near 1/4th expected dose, then see if that works.

You got 35 drops per ml?

Dose depends on your serum T levels and we do not have that data.

libido is the correct spelling, libido+labia = Labido?

[quote]KSman wrote:
hCG is very difficult to get non-Rx and getting from over-seas is a legal problem.

Try stopping AI for 5-6 days then restart at 2 drops EOD, that will be near 1/4th expected dose, then see if that works.

You got 35 drops per ml?

Dose depends on your serum T levels and we do not have that data.

libido is the correct spelling, libido+labia = Labido?
[/quote]

Yes, 35 drop per ml. and thanks, I will try this and let you know what happens. I am also going to see if I can bump up my next round of labs.

And I would say that you could add spelling issues to TRT side effects but I have always struggled with spelling.

Thanks again!

Could you help me with this Thyroid blood work? It seems to look worse than it did when I started RX armour.

    -----      1/30   ----  4/29

T4 ---- 7.1 – 5.9
T3 ---- .9 – 1.2
FT4 – 1.4 – 1.1
F T3 – 3.0 – 4.0
TSH – 2.6 – 2.8

I followed the IR protocol until my waking body temp was consistently 97.7 and assumed my Thyroid numbers would look better than they do. Any thoughts or suggestions?