Peek-a-Boo Style Weakness?

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
As Ippon said, it takes a lot of fitness to keep it up for any period of time, most guys aren’t Tyson and won’t be getting the 30 second KO. I feel like guys like Tyson, RJJ, and Mayweather are freaks, and while their styles work for them and are fun to watch trying to imitate them can get you in trouble if you’re not a freak too. A lot of guys trying to be Tyson would be better off trying to be Larry Holmes.[/quote]

Absolutely agree. I have to give credit to FightinIrish for first pointing that out, though we were talking about lighter fighters at the time. His example was that Juan Manuel Marquez was about the high water mark for imitable style. For heavies holmes would be a great one. My pick would be Joe Louis.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
As Ippon said, it takes a lot of fitness to keep it up for any period of time, most guys aren’t Tyson and won’t be getting the 30 second KO. I feel like guys like Tyson, RJJ, and Mayweather are freaks, and while their styles work for them and are fun to watch trying to imitate them can get you in trouble if you’re not a freak too. A lot of guys trying to be Tyson would be better off trying to be Larry Holmes.[/quote]

Absolutely agree. I have to give credit to FightinIrish for first pointing that out, though we were talking about lighter fighters at the time. His example was that Juan Manuel Marquez was about the high water mark for imitable style. For heavies holmes would be a great one. My pick would be Joe Louis.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

And that’s not to say you can’t be a swarming fighter, even as a relative beginner if you have the gas tank. But there’s a huge difference between Gerald McClellan throwing bunches of punches and Mike Tyson’s peekaboo.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
As Ippon said, it takes a lot of fitness to keep it up for any period of time, most guys aren’t Tyson and won’t be getting the 30 second KO. I feel like guys like Tyson, RJJ, and Mayweather are freaks, and while their styles work for them and are fun to watch trying to imitate them can get you in trouble if you’re not a freak too. A lot of guys trying to be Tyson would be better off trying to be Larry Holmes.[/quote]

Absolutely agree. I have to give credit to FightinIrish for first pointing that out, though we were talking about lighter fighters at the time. His example was that Juan Manuel Marquez was about the high water mark for imitable style. For heavies holmes would be a great one. My pick would be Joe Louis.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

And that’s not to say you can’t be a swarming fighter, even as a relative beginner if you have the gas tank. But there’s a huge difference between Gerald McClellan throwing bunches of punches and Mike Tyson’s peekaboo.
[/quote]

Very, very true.

Swarmers/“pressure” fighters find success at all levels. Hell, my favorite example is what Bob Sapp did to Hoost.

Regards,

Robert A

Well its nice to see this getting bumped. Great first post by tjr.

I made this thread 3 years ago, I was a lot more inexperienced then.

I was able to emulate tyson pretty well not out of raw power but mainly because I already had good reflexes and fast hands, so I was able to pick up head movement and really make something out of it. And to anyone looking at peek-a-boo I would recommend devoting most of your time to movement, not just jumping in there and trying to throw hellacious combos because as has been talked about already, you will get picked apart by a counter puncher. Without the defense you are just basically being a pressure fighter, which is fine, but requires enormous endurance and dominance.

I dont think I can put enough emphasis on the head movement, Ive looked at so called “peek a boo” fighters on youtube and almost all of them slack on the movement. They twitch and bob when they are out of range, but as soon as they are in punching range they go straight as a stick and start trying to trade punches, which defeats the purpose.

One thing I never got the hang of is the explosive footwork when in close. I believe its called “twisting” under the D’amato system, and I’m still not sure how to execute it under pressure. I would love to be able to explode to either side of my opponent and start unleashing hooks with impunity, but all Ive managed to do so far is end up tripping my opponent over lol.

In fact thats something I notice a lot of good american fighters have, a seemingly innate ability to change angles on their opponent in an instance, and I just can’t get it, theres a key im missing.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I like watching peekaboo style, could never do it myself though. It takes the right guy, and a lot of practice to not eat a follow-up shot after avoiding the jab. Guys at the lower levels trying to do it seem especially susceptible to a jab-same side hook combo when they move in, they’ll stop the jab and forget to keep moving, eating the hook while overextended. If you can’t avoid the shots you’d better have a concrete chin, because you’ll be eating them on your way in.

As Ippon said, it takes a lot of fitness to keep it up for any period of time, most guys aren’t Tyson and won’t be getting the 30 second KO. I feel like guys like Tyson, RJJ, and Mayweather are freaks, and while their styles work for them and are fun to watch trying to imitate them can get you in trouble if you’re not a freak too. A lot of guys trying to be Tyson would be better off trying to be Larry Holmes.[/quote]

I agree with all of this except for the part about Mayweather.

He is not “unorthodox” at all - he uses probably the most basic boxing skills there are to win his fights, and rarely deviates from the same tactics, the same combos, or the same stances. He’s just so good at it, and has such a thorough understanding of range and angles, that it looks like he’s just a remarkable physical talent.

That being said, I was much less clear on exactly what the peek-a-boo was two years ago when I commented on this. Now I have a much deeper understanding of it, and I still am not a fan.

It’s a great style for the right fighter, but not a style that everyone can use. It would probably be pretty good for me, considering I have short arms, but I would never maintain that amount of movement.

The one weakness this style has - a fighter with a great jab who understands range.

See Ali against Patterson, Lewis against Tyson. The jab splits the guard, makes room for the 2, and if the peek-a-boo fighter can’t close, he can’t do anything.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Well its nice to see this getting bumped. Great first post by tjr.

I made this thread 3 years ago, I was a lot more inexperienced then.

I was able to emulate tyson pretty well not out of raw power but mainly because I already had good reflexes and fast hands, so I was able to pick up head movement and really make something out of it. And to anyone looking at peek-a-boo I would recommend devoting most of your time to movement, not just jumping in there and trying to throw hellacious combos because as has been talked about already, you will get picked apart by a counter puncher. Without the defense you are just basically being a pressure fighter, which is fine, but requires enormous endurance and dominance.

I dont think I can put enough emphasis on the head movement, Ive looked at so called “peek a boo” fighters on youtube and almost all of them slack on the movement. They twitch and bob when they are out of range, but as soon as they are in punching range they go straight as a stick and start trying to trade punches, which defeats the purpose.

One thing I never got the hang of is the explosive footwork when in close. I believe its called “twisting” under the D’amato system, and I’m still not sure how to execute it under pressure. I would love to be able to explode to either side of my opponent and start unleashing hooks with impunity, but all Ive managed to do so far is end up tripping my opponent over lol.

In fact thats something I notice a lot of good american fighters have, a seemingly innate ability to change angles on their opponent in an instance, and I just can’t get it, theres a key im missing.
[/quote]

Great post.

It’s kinda funny too, because the one thing I realize about European and Australian fighters is their shitty, shitty footwork haha. You all fight like white guys here do - slow, plodding, looking for power shots. Even the dudes who can box are never quite as smooth as our ghetto counterparts.

Not making fun of you, because I’m the same way, just observing haha.

One fighter who did know how to change up angles inside very, very well was Ricky Hatton. I think that just came from years of being a swarmer. Again, those of us who didn’t grow up boxing will always be at a disadvantage to those who started when they were 6. Just tough to catch up in this sport.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Well its nice to see this getting bumped. Great first post by tjr.

I made this thread 3 years ago, I was a lot more inexperienced then.

I was able to emulate tyson pretty well not out of raw power but mainly because I already had good reflexes and fast hands, so I was able to pick up head movement and really make something out of it. And to anyone looking at peek-a-boo I would recommend devoting most of your time to movement, not just jumping in there and trying to throw hellacious combos because as has been talked about already, you will get picked apart by a counter puncher. Without the defense you are just basically being a pressure fighter, which is fine, but requires enormous endurance and dominance.

I dont think I can put enough emphasis on the head movement, Ive looked at so called “peek a boo” fighters on youtube and almost all of them slack on the movement. They twitch and bob when they are out of range, but as soon as they are in punching range they go straight as a stick and start trying to trade punches, which defeats the purpose.

One thing I never got the hang of is the explosive footwork when in close. I believe its called “twisting” under the D’amato system, and I’m still not sure how to execute it under pressure. I would love to be able to explode to either side of my opponent and start unleashing hooks with impunity, but all Ive managed to do so far is end up tripping my opponent over lol.

In fact thats something I notice a lot of good american fighters have, a seemingly innate ability to change angles on their opponent in an instance, and I just can’t get it, theres a key im missing.
[/quote]

Great post.

It’s kinda funny too, because the one thing I realize about European and Australian fighters is their shitty, shitty footwork haha. You all fight like white guys here do - slow, plodding, looking for power shots. Even the dudes who can box are never quite as smooth as our ghetto counterparts.

Not making fun of you, because I’m the same way, just observing haha.

One fighter who did know how to change up angles inside very, very well was Ricky Hatton. I think that just came from years of being a swarmer. Again, those of us who didn’t grow up boxing will always be at a disadvantage to those who started when they were 6. Just tough to catch up in this sport. [/quote]

Maybe its a black thing heh, I cant dance without looking goofy either. I know the polka and thats it.

Aussie Dave, I started out boxing a few months ago and have been working on the peek-a-boo style after watching about 100-200 hours of tyson on YouTube and I am starting to understand the basics of the style, if you could help me out with what you’ve learn I can’t tell you how much I would appreciate it, and if anyone else has any tips or advice to discuss that would be great as well, thanks

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Well its nice to see this getting bumped. Great first post by tjr.

I made this thread 3 years ago, I was a lot more inexperienced then.

I was able to emulate tyson pretty well not out of raw power but mainly because I already had good reflexes and fast hands, so I was able to pick up head movement and really make something out of it. And to anyone looking at peek-a-boo I would recommend devoting most of your time to movement, not just jumping in there and trying to throw hellacious combos because as has been talked about already, you will get picked apart by a counter puncher. Without the defense you are just basically being a pressure fighter, which is fine, but requires enormous endurance and dominance.

I dont think I can put enough emphasis on the head movement, Ive looked at so called “peek a boo” fighters on youtube and almost all of them slack on the movement. They twitch and bob when they are out of range, but as soon as they are in punching range they go straight as a stick and start trying to trade punches, which defeats the purpose.

One thing I never got the hang of is the explosive footwork when in close. I believe its called “twisting” under the D’amato system, and I’m still not sure how to execute it under pressure. I would love to be able to explode to either side of my opponent and start unleashing hooks with impunity, but all Ive managed to do so far is end up tripping my opponent over lol.

In fact thats something I notice a lot of good american fighters have, a seemingly innate ability to change angles on their opponent in an instance, and I just can’t get it, theres a key im missing.
[/quote]

Great post.

It’s kinda funny too, because the one thing I realize about European and Australian fighters is their shitty, shitty footwork haha. You all fight like white guys here do - slow, plodding, looking for power shots. Even the dudes who can box are never quite as smooth as our ghetto counterparts.

Not making fun of you, because I’m the same way, just observing haha.

One fighter who did know how to change up angles inside very, very well was Ricky Hatton. I think that just came from years of being a swarmer. Again, those of us who didn’t grow up boxing will always be at a disadvantage to those who started when they were 6. Just tough to catch up in this sport. [/quote]

Maybe its a black thing heh, I cant dance without looking goofy either. I know the polka and thats it.
[/quote]

Aussie Dave, I started out boxing a few months ago and have been working on the peek-a-boo style after watching about 100-200 hours of tyson on YouTube and I am starting to understand the basics of the style, if you could help me out with what you’ve learn I can’t tell you how much I would appreciate it, and if anyone else has any tips or advice to discuss that would be great as well, thanks

Sure thing mate.

the great thing about the internet age is you basically have unlimited access to footage of fighters and you can use this as a learning tool. Nothing imprints on the brain better than monkey see monkey do x 1000 especially when you start combining it with regular practice.

I can’t emphasize enough how important the head movement practice is, you need to be dogged in your pursuit at getting better at slipping punches and anticipating shots. And i do mean dogged, because it is such an advantage to be able to dodge punches and still be in a position to throw back. Some guys are good at pulling back from punches but few are good at making a guy miss and then making him pay.

Secondly, fitness is so important. The first thing Cus D’amato did was get all his fighters into excellent physical condition - so there would be no excuse psychologically and they wouldn’t fear gassing out. It’s important because a peek-a-boo fighter IMO, is basically a combination of the pressure fighter and the counter puncher. In another sense, aggressive counterpunching - so you need to be fit to keep up the effort. If you slack on the fitness, you’re going to be a fantastic dynamic one round fighter, and then the other guy is going to get you.

When it comes to punching, good technique is crucial. You need to be explosive but also be in position to throw more punches - or dodge - no matter what, for example look at this: Mike Tyson Destroys Heavy Bag - Atlantic City 1987 Part 1 - YouTube - notice how even in this relaxed session, tyson is never out of position, his feet never over extend, he doesn’t throw wild shots, and more importantly, when he makes his defensive maneuver after a combination, he is still in position to throw back whether its slipping, weaving or changes angles via footwork.

Last but not least, never forget the jab. Don’t be fooled by the hellacious combinations or Tysons shorter stature (relative to the typical HW) the jab is paramount. It does everything, it sets combinations up, it forces guys out of position and it benefits your defense greatly (very easy to swing on a guy if hes not punching back). Developing a ram rod jab is crucial, needs to be straight, accurate and fast.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Sure thing mate.

the great thing about the internet age is you basically have unlimited access to footage of fighters and you can use this as a learning tool. Nothing imprints on the brain better than monkey see monkey do x 1000 especially when you start combining it with regular practice.

I can’t emphasize enough how important the head movement practice is, you need to be dogged in your pursuit at getting better at slipping punches and anticipating shots. And i do mean dogged, because it is such an advantage to be able to dodge punches and still be in a position to throw back. Some guys are good at pulling back from punches but few are good at making a guy miss and then making him pay.

Secondly, fitness is so important. The first thing Cus D’amato did was get all his fighters into excellent physical condition - so there would be no excuse psychologically and they wouldn’t fear gassing out. It’s important because a peek-a-boo fighter IMO, is basically a combination of the pressure fighter and the counter puncher. In another sense, aggressive counterpunching - so you need to be fit to keep up the effort. If you slack on the fitness, you’re going to be a fantastic dynamic one round fighter, and then the other guy is going to get you.

When it comes to punching, good technique is crucial. You need to be explosive but also be in position to throw more punches - or dodge - no matter what, for example look at this: Mike Tyson Destroys Heavy Bag - Atlantic City 1987 Part 1 - YouTube - notice how even in this relaxed session, tyson is never out of position, his feet never over extend, he doesn’t throw wild shots, and more importantly, when he makes his defensive maneuver after a combination, he is still in position to throw back whether its slipping, weaving or changes angles via footwork.

Last but not least, never forget the jab. Don’t be fooled by the hellacious combinations or Tysons shorter stature (relative to the typical HW) the jab is paramount. It does everything, it sets combinations up, it forces guys out of position and it benefits your defense greatly (very easy to swing on a guy if hes not punching back). Developing a ram rod jab is crucial, needs to be straight, accurate and fast. [/quote]

Great help thanks just watching the video now, the last part of your message was interesting, because i didn’t realize how important the jab was. It seems like in his early pro fights he doesn’t seem to use his jab that much but rather comes in with heavy hooks after slipping someone elses jab?

Dont get me wrong I have devoloped quite a good strong fast jab now, but i just dont understand how to use it effectivley with the peekabo style, normally after slipping punches tysons combos goes straight into body hooks etc?

[quote]liams8 wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have devoloped quite a good strong fast jab now, but i just dont understand how to use it effectivley with the peekabo style, normally after slipping punches tysons combos goes straight into body hooks etc?[/quote]

The same way you would in any circumstance. Don’t get too caught up on the visual interpretation of “peek a boo”, the jab is still key to setting up, you’re using it to gauge range (tyson was often mis-characterized as an inside fighter, hes actually a horrible inside fighter, often getting tied up - see joe frazier or ricky hatton for a true inside fighter, he was a medium range fighter), to break peoples defensive “radar” for lack of a better term, and to set up the combinations.

Notice that in the correct position, slipping left or right does not impede the ability to jab, and as such the jab can be thrown while slipping, be it preemptively or dodging actual incoming shots.

To get an idea how tyson used his jab its best to watch his early fights. Post prison tyson had almost completely abandoned the jab much as he had his movement, he was relying on his ferocious power which was fine against the 2nd rate fighters he was being fed, but failed him when he came up against an actual talent who wasn’t scared of him at all, ala holyfield.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]liams8 wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have devoloped quite a good strong fast jab now, but i just dont understand how to use it effectivley with the peekabo style, normally after slipping punches tysons combos goes straight into body hooks etc?[/quote]

The same way you would in any circumstance. Don’t get too caught up on the visual interpretation of “peek a boo”, the jab is still key to setting up, you’re using it to gauge range (tyson was often mis-characterized as an inside fighter, hes actually a horrible inside fighter, often getting tied up - see joe frazier or ricky hatton for a true inside fighter, he was a medium range fighter), to break peoples defensive “radar” for lack of a better term, and to set up the combinations.

Notice that in the correct position, slipping left or right does not impede the ability to jab, and as such the jab can be thrown while slipping, be it preemptively or dodging actual incoming shots.

To get an idea how tyson used his jab its best to watch his early fights. Post prison tyson had almost completely abandoned the jab much as he had his movement, he was relying on his ferocious power which was fine against the 2nd rate fighters he was being fed, but failed him when he came up against an actual talent who wasn’t scared of him at all, ala holyfield.

[/quote]

Very interesting thanks, I also thought tyson was an inside fighter and the part you wrote about that being a misconception is really interesting and I can actually see what you mean. Thanks for all of your help, one last thing. Yesterday I was sparring with someone who’s turning pro in a couple of months, compared to me who’s only been boxing a couple of months and that was my 3rd ever spar, but nonetheless I found it very difficult to slip his punches because when I’d slip the jab, he’d follow up with some more punches that I couldn’t see and couldn’t get out of the way of. What is the best way to practice head movement when by yourself training? Thanks

Of course, sparring is the best hands down, but by yourself, shadowboxing practicing side to side movement for imaginary straight punches and dipping/weaving under looping shots. As you start to get better at it then you can start incorporating some footwork, the twist is a very important movement in the peek-a-boo system that is often overlooked too, the twist being an explosive movement to the side of your opponent, essentially flanking them. here’s a video of kevin rooney teaching a novice the twist, the guy isn’t very practiced at it so it looks sloppy obviously but it should give you an idea of what the attempt is aimed to achieve:

Double end/floor-to-ceiling bag is also very useful to get into the habit of throwing combinations but also remaining defensively sound.

Above all else, don’t expect miracles. Like anything it will take time and practice to get better at it, consistency/persistence is the most underrated aspect of athletics IMO. You’re going to get hit a lot before you start making people miss a lot.

I actually used to box using this style, being only around 5ft 7" and weighing around 85kg. I spent years researching all great but short boxers that used the peekaboo style or a similar style (e.g Frazier). There are key components that you need to just repeat over and over again to become autonomic such as:
-A quick, yet accurate and stiff jab.
-Slipping, bobbing and weaving when dodging punches. And slipping, bobbing and weaving even when you’re not dodging punches.
-Having the highest level of fitness in your gym.

The 3rd point is often the hardest, but such is the sacrifice of this style, you have to work harder than everyone in and out of the ring, if you don’t, you’ll pay the price. After all, its much less tiring to just stand and weight for the person to come to you.

However, what people often don’t realise about this style is the untraditional methods you need to practice when using it. For example, most traditional ways of fighting involve being orthodox or southpaw. And yes, whilst I understand that peekaboo is more square on, you are style dominant on one side right? Wrong. Whilst you can stand with one foot forward, you need to try and equalise the power you have in both hands. As well as doing this, you need to try and train yourself to be able to punch out of position. At the end of the day, as you’re stalking your opponent and trying to exploit any weakness you see, you can’t get yourself set back in the traditional stance before you punch. You just punch.

Also, use a slip bag. More than anything. When you shadow box, do it on the slip bag. When you want to work on slipping, use the slip bag, when you want to work on blocking, use the slip bag.
Slip bag.
Slip bag.
Slip bag.

[quote]JMallon95 wrote:
I actually used to box using this style, being only around 5ft 7" and weighing around 85kg. I spent years researching all great but short boxers that used the peekaboo style or a similar style (e.g Frazier). There are key components that you need to just repeat over and over again to become autonomic such as:
-A quick, yet accurate and stiff jab.
-Slipping, bobbing and weaving when dodging punches. And slipping, bobbing and weaving even when you’re not dodging punches.
-Having the highest level of fitness in your gym.

The 3rd point is often the hardest, but such is the sacrifice of this style, you have to work harder than everyone in and out of the ring, if you don’t, you’ll pay the price. After all, its much less tiring to just stand and weight for the person to come to you.

However, what people often don’t realise about this style is the untraditional methods you need to practice when using it. For example, most traditional ways of fighting involve being orthodox or southpaw. And yes, whilst I understand that peekaboo is more square on, you are style dominant on one side right? Wrong. Whilst you can stand with one foot forward, you need to try and equalise the power you have in both hands. As well as doing this, you need to try and train yourself to be able to punch out of position. At the end of the day, as you’re stalking your opponent and trying to exploit any weakness you see, you can’t get yourself set back in the traditional stance before you punch. You just punch.

Also, use a slip bag. More than anything. When you shadow box, do it on the slip bag. When you want to work on slipping, use the slip bag, when you want to work on blocking, use the slip bag.
Slip bag.
Slip bag.
Slip bag. [/quote]

Nice advice cheers, where could i get a slip bag?

You can buy them if need be, but to be honest with you, you’re better off making one. It makes it easier to repair and what not if anything goes wrong. When I made mine, it literally involved a plastic bag filled with a bit of sand/dirt, placed in an old gym sock and tied with a knot at the top, then connected to the ceiling by a bit of thin rope.

It’s exactly the same principle as any of the other bags that are available. You can adjust the rope length to be at head height depending on your stance, not when you’re stood upright (remember that in case you dip down slightly when you get in your stance). There’s plenty of videos on the web about how to make your own, for example: - YouTube

If not I’m sure everlast or something will make one that shouldn’t be too expensive.

[quote]JMallon95 wrote:
You can buy them if need be, but to be honest with you, you’re better off making one. It makes it easier to repair and what not if anything goes wrong. When I made mine, it literally involved a plastic bag filled with a bit of sand/dirt, placed in an old gym sock and tied with a knot at the top, then connected to the ceiling by a bit of thin rope.

It’s exactly the same principle as any of the other bags that are available. You can adjust the rope length to be at head height depending on your stance, not when you’re stood upright (remember that in case you dip down slightly when you get in your stance). There’s plenty of videos on the web about how to make your own, for example: - YouTube

If not I’m sure everlast or something will make one that shouldn’t be too expensive.
[/quote]

Cheers mate, will look to make one soon.

Out of interest, you said you used to do this style, which either means:

  1. you chose a different style (if so why?)
    or
  2. You dont box anymore (if so, how far did you get with this style and if you were to give one reason as to why you couldnt utilise it as effectivly as tyson what would it be?)

Cheers

Young Tyson was an outlier. Don’t know why any mortal would try to copy his style. It’s like try to box like Sweet Pea or Qawi. The basics and traditional fundamentals will work with 99% of boxers. The biggest weakness not mentioned is that it really obstructs your vision too. So many people do it incorrectly and your hands are not in a natural position to punch with full effectiveness. Unless you are Tyson of course. It’s easier to steal certain aspects and to apply it to your natural style that compliments your frame and physical strengths.