T Nation

Pedophile Dfns: Religious Freedom

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ANd who is the arbitor of “crazy behavior”? You?

You have the right to hate religion all you want - and I join you there on many points.

But your outright blind hatred of ALL things religion is a sign of zealotry of a different sort.

What makes your zealotry acceptable to you, while pretty much reaming those of faith?
Are you that scared of us?
[/quote]
I’m not scared and I do not hate you nor christianity.
This is the last time I stress this cause it’s getting pointless.

The whole concept of “you hate-we hate-they hate” comes , most of the time, from the zealots mouths.
You can call me that if you like. But I really don’t see why I’m a hater.

Is it, perhaps, because debating without calling names or libel could lead to an actual exchange of arguments, where someone could -gasp- leanr something or -doublegasp- change his opinion?

And yes, you can, to a certain degree, tell that certain mannerisms and devotional patterns are outright crazy.

Like the story I told you- the one of Abram and his son- is crazy.
Mr. A. wants to kill his son for his good lord. Who in turn shows his generosity through stopping his hand in the last moment.
And this is taught to children.
I mean- how much crazier can you get?
Tell me, is this not insanity, or what?

So yes, while there are shades of grey, some of these teachings are definitely crazy and dangerous.

The shouldn’t be taught to the young and the uneducated. By doing this you create a bizarre society which, with one hand, navigates through the internet using hight technology which wouldn’t be possible if everyone would be a 100% christian, while the other hand is smacking a juvenile for sinning.

Leave the fairy tales behind while you can.

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Without religious loons, there probably wouldn’t have been this child molesting sect.

You are probably right, but there still would be child molesting.
[/quote]

Of course.

But a society which uses quasilogical, spiritual patterns to justify their own view of morality over and over again, [like Bush’s famous comment about how he thinks that “the lord” wanted him to become president]is a lot more prone to such tragedies.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Your loony argument has zero merit.

There are no religions in the US that I am aware of that are allowed to break the law.

[/quote]

Sure there are.

Some religions are allowed to use narcotics during their rituals.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
[…]

Let me get back to basics with you:

Any nut can say and do just about anything. That that particular nut attributes his “nuttieness” to a “religion” does not in fact mean that Christianity is bad.

That nut could have attributed his criminal behavior to eating lots of Twinkies. And as a matter of fact there was a killer not long ago who in DID attribute his criminal behavior to eating Twinkies.

In fact, I think it was called “the Twinkie defense.”

Now tell me does that mean that everyone who eats Twinkies is a killer? Does it mean that anyone who eats cakes or pastries is going to commit a crime?
[…]
[/quote]

Dear Zeb,

I believe it’s hilarious to compare my analogy to the twinkie-criminal .
Certainly, he tried to save his neck with some absurd allegation.
Does that mean that you cannot, ever, draw conclusions from one individual to a group?

If there’d be a slight chance twinkies would have had the potential of twisting people’s minds, there would have been examination, expertises and the like.
But because it’s just some candybar(?) and that guy was trying to save his ass, it’s probably safe to assume you can still eat them on your cheatmeal day.

However,
I can back up my case with thousands of examples of religious lunacy which took place all over history, over and over again. All in his name. Just pick up that book and try , for once, not to read the good parts (which sound kinda cool here and there) but the crazy stuff, which makes up the major parts.

As long as there’s religion, man will have excuses to behave in atotally irrational way.
Why consult a psychiatrist when the virgin (sic) Mary spoke to you?
Just say no.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
rainjack wrote:
ANd who is the arbitor of “crazy behavior”? You?

You have the right to hate religion all you want - and I join you there on many points.

But your outright blind hatred of ALL things religion is a sign of zealotry of a different sort.

What makes your zealotry acceptable to you, while pretty much reaming those of faith?
Are you that scared of us?

I’m not scared and I do not hate you nor christianity.
This is the last time I stress this cause it’s getting pointless.

The whole concept of “you hate-we hate-they hate” comes , most of the time, from the zealots mouths.
You can call me that if you like. But I really don’t see why I’m a hater.

Is it, perhaps, because debating without calling names or libel could lead to an actual exchange of arguments, where someone could -gasp- leanr something or -doublegasp- change his opinion?

And yes, you can, to a certain degree, tell that certain mannerisms and devotional patterns are outright crazy.

Like the story I told you- the one of Abram and his son- is crazy.
Mr. A. wants to kill his son for his good lord. Who in turn shows his generosity through stopping his hand in the last moment.
And this is taught to children.
I mean- how much crazier can you get?
Tell me, is this not insanity, or what?

So yes, while there are shades of grey, some of these teachings are definitely crazy and dangerous.

The shouldn’t be taught to the young and the uneducated. By doing this you create a bizarre society which, with one hand, navigates through the internet using hight technology which wouldn’t be possible if everyone would be a 100% christian, while the other hand is smacking a juvenile for sinning.

Leave the fairy tales behind while you can. [/quote]

Once again, equating religion with pedophilia weakens any argument you might have.

You say you are not a hater, but your utter contempt for religion walks, and quacks like a hater.

You are extrememly zealous in your campaign against religion, such that it makes your asking for honest debate laughable.

There is no such thing as honest debate when your closemindedness drowns out your ability to make a rational point.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Once again, equating religion with pedophilia weakens any argument you might have.
You say you are not a hater, but your utter contempt for religion walks, and quacks like a hater.

You are extrememly zealous in your campaign against religion, such that it makes your asking for honest debate laughable.
There is no such thing as honest debate when your closemindedness drowns out your ability to make a rational point.

[/quote]
One of us doesn’t get it.

There is a christian guy who has a perverse lust for children’s butts and who gets his own TNation thread to argue about his behaviour.

I did not say religion = pedophilia, I didn’t show any signs of zeal (please show me) or hatred.
Is it impossible to discuss the dark sides of religion in a seemingly appropriate thread?

It seems when the irrationality in religion shows through, the arguing side must consist of haters and zealots.
But what if religion is irrational and leads to exactly that kind of behaviour?
And why does my concern, that religion is dangerous to western society, automatically makes you think I’m a hater?

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
One of us doesn’t get it.[/quote]

That much is obvious by reading your posts.

I assume you are talking about this thread - you make the assumption that he is christian. I have no idea what the relevance of this is, other than you creating yet another opportunity to malign that which you hate.

[quote]I did not say religion = pedophilia, I didn’t show any signs of zeal (please show me) or hatred.
Is it impossible to discuss the dark sides of religion in a seemingly appropriate thread?[/quote]

When you use the adjectives you do to describe those of faith, or religion in general, you show your very deep dislike. Like I said - it walks like hate and quacks like hate. Deep hatred = zeal in most cases.

And you have yet to “show the dark sides of religion”. You are using it to voice your dislike/hatred - whichever you want to call it.

[quote]It seems when the irrationality in religion shows through, the arguing side must consist of haters and zealots.
But what if religion is irrational and leads to exactly that kind of behaviour?
And why does my concern, that religion is dangerous to western society, automatically makes you think I’m a hater?[/quote]

No - I can debate the merits of christianity with people if they will bring just a touch of intellectual honesty to the table. This is where you fall short. You have called the religion, and people of faith all sorts of names, yet you get your panties in a wad when you are returned the favor?

Faith is not rational by it’s very definition. That does not mean that my only option is to fall back on calling you a hater or a zealot. You and your words brought that upon yourself.

Your “concerns” are overshadowed by your dislike. There is a difference between being concerned, and already having tried and convicted that which you are “concerned” about.

Well said Rainjack.

Schwarzfahrer-

I guess I’m having trouble seeing the correlation between religion, in general, and the pervasiveness of pedophilia. I realize that, in this situation, a man is using the mantle of religion to justify his sexual deviancy; however, NAMBLA, for instance, has no relationship with any religion–it operates out of San Francisco and New york, hardly religious strongholds–and bases its platform solely around legal arguments. Are we to assume the legal profession, or the law in general, is responsible for the spread of pedophilia?

Religion has been used to justify much evil throughout history; however, over the last 200 years, science, politics, and nationalism have been used as justification for the deaths of millions. Does that mean those things are the problem in and of themselves? I say no. The problem is people–and people will use just about anything to justify their actions.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

I can back up my case with thousands of examples of religious lunacy which took place all over history, over and over again.[/quote]

That makes no sense at all. I can point out thousands of cases where lunacy was prevelant and religion was no where to be found!

You are basically stereotyping.

Take a look:

ALL gun owners are bad…

ALL black people are bad…

ALL people who lift weights are muscle bound idiots…

ALL women are weaker than all men…

And your basic point on this thread:

ALL religion is bad…

Atheists are supposed to pride themselves on logic. However, your argument was born of YOUR biased against religion. And has no logical merit at all.

Yea?

Well what’s your excuse right now?

Why are YOU acting in a totally irrational way?

Really…I warned you in my last post that you should just excuse yourself before you got in deeper.

Well…you’re in deeper!

Scold me if you want for resorting to violence, but if someone did this to a child who was mine, hell hath no fury.

[quote]orion wrote:
Sure there are.

Some religions are allowed to use narcotics during their rituals.
[/quote]

No religion has the right to violate the law, City of Boerne v. Flores, 117 S. Ct. 2157 (1997)(overturning the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 - RFRA).

http://www.princeton.edu/~lawjourn/Fall97/II1gupta.html

Hmm, speaking of a “dark side”, I don’t suppose anyone sees the relationship between religion and terrorism?

No?

Didn’t think so… because that would make you a little inconsistent.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Hmm, speaking of a “dark side”, I don’t suppose anyone sees the relationship between religion and terrorism?

No?

Didn’t think so… because that would make you a little inconsistent.[/quote]

There’s a fundamental flaw in your thinking, or at the very least your choice of words.

There is nothing wrong with religion. Even Islam is a purported to be a peace loving religion.

There is, however a direct tie to terrorism and fanaticism. And the fanatics don’t even have to be religious. Just look at the PETA crowd, or the ALF nutjobs.

But saying that it is religion that has direct ties to terrorism is painting with way too broad of a brush.

Damn I forgot the exact quotes but here is the gist of it. I think what Schwarzfahrer is trying to say is a combination of these two quotes, either that or I am a retard.

“Without religion good men would do good deeds and bad men would do bad deeds, but it takes religion to get a good man to commit a bad deed.”

and

"Evil men will be the first to hide behind their flags and books (Bible, Torah, Quran)

The actual quotes were better…

[quote]Phatshady912 wrote:
Damn I forgot the exact quotes but here is the gist of it. I think what Schwarzfahrer is trying to say is a combination of these two quotes, either that or I am a retard.

“Without religion good men would do good deeds and bad men would do bad deeds, but it takes religion to get a good man to commit a bad deed.”

and

"Evil men will be the first to hide behind their flags and books (Bible, Torah, Quran)

The actual quotes were better…[/quote]

BULL!

Zeb, Zeb , Zeb…

I don’t know what to say besides that you aren’t even trying.

How is it OK that in the infamous “Brokeback” thread you’re accusing collectively homosexuals since 100+pages as having a dangerous lifestyle, being etc.

But me, I’m saying that

ALL gun owners are bad…
ALL black people are bad…
ALL religion is bad…
yeah right.

Only a dimwit would say black peaple are bad. Wait, there was a time when they did unspeakable things like Slavery to blacks, covering it with …religion? Bingo.

Lemme quote Exodus
…If a man sells his daughter as a slave she will not leave as male slaves do. If she does not please her master who intended her for himself he must let her be bought back.
If someone beats his slave and the slave dies at his hands he shall certainly be avenged. But should the slave survive for one day or two he will pay no penalty because the slave is his owner’s property.

Bronze Age Madness?

Nay, Religion is probably not that bad, It was just that my old hebrew sucks and I misquoted the great book.

OK, seriously:
Black people, gun owners, people who lift weights are not all bad.
All religions are probably not bad either.

But as long as there are those incredibly violent ideologies from 3000 BC around, prepare to see some sick shit like child-molesting coming around more often.

-Schwarzfahrer

Phatshady912, thanks for contributing something substantial to the thread.
Do you know the source from the actual quotes?

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Phatshady912, thanks for contributing something substantial to the thread.
Do you know the source from the actual quotes?

[/quote]

I guess you have changed the definition of substantial.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Phatshady912 wrote:
Damn I forgot the exact quotes but here is the gist of it. I think what Schwarzfahrer is trying to say is a combination of these two quotes, either that or I am a retard.

“Without religion good men would do good deeds and bad men would do bad deeds, but it takes religion to get a good man to commit a bad deed.”

and

"Evil men will be the first to hide behind their flags and books (Bible, Torah, Quran)

The actual quotes were better…

BULL!
[/quote]

I’ll give two examples, though they most certainly don’t prove the quotes true they are food for thought.

Suicide Bomber Quote #1

George Bush, Osama Bin Laden Quote #2

I doubt either of these need an explaination but if they do, let me know and I’ll be glad to explain.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There’s a fundamental flaw in your thinking, or at the very least your choice of words.

There is nothing wrong with religion. Even Islam is a purported to be a peace loving religion.

There is, however a direct tie to terrorism and fanaticism. And the fanatics don’t even have to be religious. Just look at the PETA crowd, or the ALF nutjobs.

But saying that it is religion that has direct ties to terrorism is painting with way too broad of a brush. [/quote]

Rainjack,

I can buy most of what you are saying. I’m not saying being religious makes one a fanatic.

However, I will say that if you believe strongly and you feel that there is an imperative coming from God, it is trivial at that point to become a “fanatic”.

Religion is a very powerful tool for crafting fanaticism. It does happen in other realms as well though.

Now, you can certainly argue that this is not the fault of religion, but there is a correlation with fervent belief and an ability to be manipulated into what others deem inappropriate actions.

Finally, we’ve all talked about how islamic fundamentalists are terrorists. These people believe God will reward them for their actions, that they will have seven virgins as wives or some such upon death in their holy Jihad.

If that is not a tie between religion and terrorism, then you simply refuse to see it… unless you will claim that fundamentalists within a religious sect are not actually religious.