well I’m sure we both agree that the tri’s are realy the weakest link in just about any pressing exercise. My point about the bench vs. dips is not that the bench can’t build a big chest its just that I think that dips are better, when ever I think of a muscle I try to find a movement that streches the muscle the most and then an exercise that contracts it the most. there are few exercises for any bodypart that do both, for back maybe the rv.chins to chest or hammer/nautilus pullovers, there are none realy for bi’s or tri’s that do both, quads either, hams have the glute/ham raise, front delts have the standard overhead press (first half atleast), the pec do have an exercise that comes close to doing both. the DIPS, the fully contracted position is w/elbows down, close together right in front of the body, the fully streched position is w/elbows up high behind the body, just like dips, the pecs primary movement is to pull the arms DOWN and together, not across the body, that is not how they “function best” the first about third of a dip (from bottom) is almost all pec, then the delts come in then the tris, if there is an exercise that works the pecs better I think it would be the LOW decline bench, but a barbell prevents a full strech and db’s, due to the amount of balance needed, prevent optimum overload ,I know some will dissagree but I think there is a fine line between the benefits of free wts. and the decrease in overload due to the “stabalizer” muscles being involved, I think barbells are the almost perfect compromise between db’s and machines but they limit the range of motion in a decline press and db’s can also once you go over about 120’s (atleast for me) unless you use a hammer grip, which is great I just do not find the hammer grip to be very comfortable for myself. again I think you can build a great big chest w/benches I just think there is a better way. and I understand your point about “if your delts are causing failure in the bench, then they are doing the bulk ot the work, and they are the weekest link” I can w/ rows for example concentrate on pulling from my elbows and almost not use by bi’s at all but I think it is next to impossibe in free wt. pressing movements (for myself atleast) so you are always limited by the weekest muscle, and delt strength has not been a prob for me, I have always been able to incline almost as much as I bench. there is another prob w/ the power curve that most use when they bench (which is why some people feel the db bench more that the bb bench) but I have taken up toooo much space w/my ramblings already. peace