T Nation

PCT with Clomid After 9 Months HRT


#1

Hi Everyone,

Long time stalker but first time poster so I will try and include as much detail as possible regarding my question.

Alittle background, I am 42yrs old, 220lbs and been training most of my life. In college I ran a few cycles between 12 - 14weeks and followed hcg/clomid PCT each time without issue. That said, after having two kids back to back,moving to a new city, and grinding through a crappy job I started to look and feel very run down. One of my clients happened to be a hormone “optimization” clinic and after some thought I had my lab test done. I wasn’t too bad but right on the line (admittedly, I was boozing and not eating great) about 395 total T and 9 for Free T. I had the other obvious markers, low Vit D, DHEA low, High BP, etc. so they let me know I was a candidate for HRT.
They put me on 200mg per week taken on Sunday/Thur, Nature Throid 1 grain, and various vitamins. Half way through I started taking 250 mcg HCG twice a week to kick start the boys just in case. My plan was to commit to it and make it a lifelong therapy, but after 9 months I just didn’t like the way I felt and needed to be much more patient and easy going since I am a father of a 2yr old and 3yr old whose mother travels alot, leaving me as Mr. Mom for days at a time.

Here is where is gets interesting, I let my dr at the clinic know I was stopping and asked what we needed to do as a PCT. She had nothing to say other than they don’t have a plan for that since this should be a lifetime commitment, and told me to just come back in a few weeks if I felt bad (probably knowing full well the brutal depression I was about to endure after being on trt for 9 months).

I ran the HCG for the two weeks after my last pin then switched over to liquid Clomid at 50 mgs a day for 2 weeks then down to 25 mgs. I have been running the clomid for 3 months now at 25mgs and started back on my zoloft that I had been on for years before trt.

My question is this: How long do I need to run PCT since I ran TRT for 9 months at 200mg Test C per week? Each time I try to taper to stop I become an emotional, depressed mess with a good dose of anxiety. Making things worse are my two kiddos running around playing, fighting, crying, etc and me being by myself half the time. I am going in for labs today, are there other levels I need to look at besides just T and E2? Clearly the clinic has no idea.


#2

There is also a ‘HPTA restart’ sticky

If you did not feel right on TRT, then that should be fixed.
You probably had expected high E2 [estradiol] and that can make males bitchy.
TRT in no to blame, your doctor did not know what to do.
You needed anastrozole to manage E2 levels near E2=22pg/ml


Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys - need more info about you
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.

KSman is simply a regular member on this site. Nothing more other than highly active.

I can be a bit abrupt in my replies and recommendations. I have a lot of ground to cover as this forum has become much more active in the last two years. I can’t follow threads that go deep over time. You need to respond to all of my points and requests as soon as possible before you fall off of my radar. The worse problems are guys who ignore issues re thyroid, body temperatures, history of iodized salt. Please do not piss people off saying that lab results are normal, we need lab number and ranges.

The value that you get out of this process and forum depends on your effort and performance. The bulk of your learning is reading/studying the suggested stickies.


#3

Thanks KSman. I will check that out now. I am getting my labs back on Monday and should have a better idea of where I am at. I suspect my estrogen is high since I have been on Clomid for 3 months now. I have ordered some Aromosin and should get it Friday. That said, should I start to taper off the Clomid and introduce the Aromosin at a low dose? Every time I try and taper without an AI I get depressed, anxiety, moody, etc. Any direction anyone has would be a huge help.

Quick rant about HRT Docs: Honestly, Hormone Replacement doctors should not be able to prescribe TRT without an exit strategy included. Mine basically just said, come back if you start feeling bad. Probably assuming I didn’t know about PCT and figured I would freak out and jump back on so they could make their money. That is so dangerous and completely irresponsible! Anyway, rant over lol


#5

@KSman, I was able to get my blood results back today and have listed below. As suspected my LH is pretty high at 18 but it looks like my E2 is only around 22, weird. Also, I received my Aromosin today and just want to know what dosage would be good to take and how quick to taper down the Clomid which is causing these issues? Any help would be huge!

E2 - 22.1
DHEA - 355
Vit D - 55
TSH 1.510 uIU/mL 0.450-4.500
Testosterone,Free/TotEquilib Testosterone,Serum 578 ng/dL 264-916
%FreeTestosterone 2.58 % 1.50-4.20
CBC,Platelet,NoDifferential NRBC Null
WBC 8.2 x10E3/uL 3.4-10.8
RBC 4.75 x10E6/uL 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 14.8 g/dL 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 43.3 % 37.5-51.0
MCV 91 fL 79-97
MCH 31.2 pg 26.6-33.0
MCHC 34.2 g/dL 31.5-35.7
RDW 14.2 % 12.3-15.4
Platelets 266 x10E3/uL 150-379
FSHandLH FSH 10.3 mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
LH 18.1 High mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
Thyroxine(T4)Free,Direct,S T4,Free(Direct) 1.31 ng/dL 0.82-1.77
Prostate-SpecificAg,Serum ProstateSpecificAg,Serum 1.9 ng/mL 0.0-4.0


#7

Hey everyone,
I wanted to provide an update on how everything turned out months later after I posted this post freaking out and trying to figure out what was wrong with my PCT. Nothing is worse than reading a forum and as soon as the person starts to feel better they stop posting and letting everyone they are feeling better. I swore, when I was going through this PCT hell that no matter what I would respond to this thread in hopes that it would help even one person.

I can say, being on HRT/TRT was NOT a good idea for me at 42 years old with relatively normal numbers but unknowingly battling with sleep apnea. Once my sleep apnea was found everything changed and I decided I did not need HRT. I had been on 200mg test cyp, nature thyroid, Vit D, DHA/Omega 3, and DHEA. I weaned off the thyroid meds, did the hcg the last few weeks after last pin, and started clomid. My plan was to run the 25mg clomid for 4 weeks like I had done when I was younger and recovered fine. Each time i tried, I got depressed and VERY anxious feeling as soon as I started weening off. My thought at the time was maybe I just wasn’t ready to come off clomid yet so I would go back to 25mg and immediately feel better. This happened over and over until I was trapped in the clomid storm where my LH/GSH were really high which pumped up my E2. That is when I wrote the above thread freaking out and needing to find answers. I had not heard about aromasin until this point and finally started 2 weeks worth of a very small dose twice a week, around 12.5 (I was sensitive to dosage so small dose worked for me). I was finally able to come off the clomid after 2 weeks and then weened off the aromasin.
Now, this is where it gets interesting and might help others. I was finally off all the test, thyroid, and only taking the DHEA, Vit D (5000IU), and a small dose of Unleashed (which helps a ton). Although I was done with my PCT I was not out of the woods yet. It took almost 3 MONTHS to finally feel better and feel like myself again (stopped all PCT on Dec 6th through today, Feb 14th). Xanax was a HUGE help to get me through anxiety and social situations, alcohol seemed to make it worse if I drank more than one night in a row, I even jumped back on zoloft to help me feel better and still wasn’t quite myself as my body was adjusting back to normal. Today I am feeling great and back in the gym using natural weights.

I really hope this helps someone, and that they realize that it takes a different amount of time for each person to finally be back to normal. It’s not when you finish PCT, that just means you are now not using anything to prop up your hormones, after PCT your body is forced to start working on their own and it takes time to get back to their normal work. I am 42 and ran test straight for 9 months and am here to tell you IT DOES GET BETTER SLOWLY BUT SURELY after PCT!

Tips: Research ways to naturally increase test, maybe look at a serotonin diet, limit booze, try and stay away from stressful situations, get good sleep, absolutely drink water and stay hydrated, and force yourself to work out. You will slowly come out of it and your mind will miraculously forget the bummed out thoughts and feelings you had. You WILL get back to normal in your own time. Needless to say, I will not ever try this again, this is coming from a guy who has made it through hell and back with my HRT/PCT/Recovery. Everyone experiences this ride differently but hormones are so powerful and can make a completely sane person feel like they are going absolutely batshit crazy and depressed, all because the hormones are out of wack. It was the most scared I have ever been!

I hope this helps anyone trying to find information on their PCT.