T Nation

PCT vs Test Taper?

Not a lot of info in this, is there any reason one would be better than the other? Test taper PCT sounds more appealing… has anyone had good success with ending a test only cycle with a taper?

Taper is not logical. Even very low amount of exegenous testesterone would prevent your body’s testesterone production. So pct would be pointless

You would be surprised if you know that people continue to live with how low amount of natural testesterone

then why does every medical doctor insist on a taper?

Tapers do work but you still need atleast a standard pct.

The concept of the taper is you get your synthetic test level just below where you would be if natural was full on. That way the body detects that it needs more test without the synthetic shutting down the hpta loop and allows a small amount of natural production to supplement the synthetic level. The thing is there is no way to hold your synthetic level just low enough to allow this slow turn on and return to production of the natural. Every time you would inject any estered testosterone your levels would go up high enough to shutdown natural production, provided you were not taking injections of 5 mgs of test prop every day. Even 5 mgs might be higher than your natural production just depending. Now if you look at what happens to you levels at the end of a higher dose long ester test cycle then you actually get a period where there is a synthetic level that is lower than what the natural would be. It isn’t very long but it is there and it does allow a small amount of synthetic test to linger in the system as the natural production gets up and going, that way you should never be at “absolute zero” So when you think about it there is two solid reasons for you to not try and taper down your dosage.

Keep in mind I am not a doctor but in reality general practitioners probably know less than some folks here.

Nope, 25-50mg test C/wk would induce for the majority sub physiologic concentrations of androgen.

Lol some endocrinologists even know less. The field of anabolic steroid usage isn’t one we have a whole lot of literature on giving the illicit nature of the drugs… However we surprisingly have more knowledge regarding other substances of recreation.

That being said in Aus GP’s are typically ill informaed/lack knowledge on all facets of substance abuse (nicotine addiction, alcoholism, cannabis use disorder, cocaine addiction you name it) that’s because drug use/abuse is treated as a criminal issue here rather than a health issue

Are you saying that a 50 mg shot would be just below natural levels? Yeah I agree that by day two it would but that first day I would think/bet it would go up to or just over top natural levels. I don’t know if one day would induce shutdown but after a 12 week cycle then getting one day a week where it could shutdown seems like it would make a yo-yo situation in regards to getting everything up and running.

Now 25 mgs yeah that would keep you under but still the amount your body would need to be producing to supplement the synthetic would be thrown off whack that day after you pin which seems like it just wouldn’t be a productive way to get your natural production back up and running while having the crutch of a very low synthetic level just to keep you from absolute zero.

I obviously didn’t get my meaning through but maybe it is clearer. If understand the theory behind the taper it just isn’t practical with long esters but short esters it could be done if you were pinning tiny amounts each day to keep a very steady low low synthetic level. The theory is your body detects it needs more test so it can get up and running on the natural production. I would think any long ester at any amount would cause too much of a fluctuation unless you were pinning extremely low dosages like 5mgs everyday. Even trying to pin EOD there would be a spike (relative) in synthetic levels that could cause the loop to stop the natural production.

Of course I say all this and I still dont know just how sensitive or how quickly that loop detects then reacts to our injections. I would think there is a lag time because I don’t have estrogen sides for a while but of course that doesn’t mean I don’t have elevated estrogen within hours of a first shot. Yet I consistently noticed ball shrinkage the first week of my cycles back when I cycles and PCT’d. Really I swear they were deflated within 3 days but I know all to well how succeptible I am to placebo effects and if I was looking for ball shrinkage I was going to find it.

Did you understand what I was trying to say about the low steady synthetic level and how basically any appreciable injections would mess that low steady level up. Unless it was a steady extremely low dose injection(s). How quickly do our bodies detect that synthetic level higher than what a natural level would be and then shutdown natural production. I know it’s not usually a complete shutdown unless it’s certain compounds but how quickly does the reaction of lowered production happen? I always thought the detection and the feedback to lower production happened pretty quickly but it just took a couple of days for it to fully go all the way down. Kinda like when you put the brakes on in your car, you start slowing down almost instantly but it takes a little while to get all the way stopped. I thought those spikes in synthetic levels would be like tapping the brakes on natural production which seems like a very bad idea when you are trying to recover natural production.

Am I making any sense?

Hey when you get the time please look at what I wrote because there are questions in there that I have always wanted to know and you seem to be able to find the answers. I try but I wouldn’t know a bs report from a legit medical text. You might have answered the questions before but I tend to loose track of what I comment on so I don’t always see the responses.

The basis of what I was trying to say is even a 50mg test enanthate shot would possibly be like tapping the brakes as you try to get your natural production back up and on. Whereas a very low constant injection with test p or very very low test e then that would be more like just slow acceleration for the return of natural production.

Even i write that I know I am not making my thoughts clear.

Yea I’ll check the question youve asked, see if I know the answer. My birthday is tommorow so it might be a bit before I can answer (as in tonight and tommorow might be impossible, but I’ll try… I’ll probably go home before I go out tonight, so I’ll answer then

Happy birthday man!

@unreal24278
Happy birthday!

Thanks guys :slight_smile: @aaronca

19… final year as a teenager!!!

Happy birthday brother! @unreal24278

SB

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I just realized you birthday didn’t register for me. Happy belated birthday. As a 19 year old i feel I should impart something I think you have seen me write before; remember your dick I not made of Platinum. I promise you the years start going by so fast like starting now, so enjoy them just operate from respect. You would be surprised how girls (maybe guys but idk) will be okay with you having urges you want to satisfy without any serious commitment. You just have to be honest and not a dick about it as you tell them. They have the same urges but they get called a slut if anyone finds out, so keep your mouth shut. They will tell each other and guys that keep their mouths shut typically got more action. They will see you as a safer bet to release the urges. My personal belief and this is years after watching is girls are worse than guys when it comes to doing the “dip and dash” think about it. When a chick goes through a break up all she has to do to get laid is go get drunk and if she doesn’t get picked up then at the end of the night someone will take her home. If you go to college mark my words, I lived this and even my little brother abd his roommate called me and told me how right I was. Sophomore year the girls get so fucking full of themselves. Freshman year they are just out of mom and dads house, timid testing the water and exploring. Sophomore year they think they know it all because of all the shit that happened freshman years. They think their shit doesn’t stink and that they can lie so well that their boyfriend will always be there for her if she can’t go home with someone else on “girls night.” This is a side bit, anytime you hear girls night and that means you can’t come or call, some sort of cheating is happening so go fucking catch her in it. She will always continue until she is caught and if your going to get cheated on then there is a satisfaction of seeing her reaction when you catch her.
Then at 21 and this might be an American thing but I bet you Aussies have a version, they turn into drunk messes and they don’t come out of it until 25ish. 21 is drinking age here so they can start drinking before the bar without having to get someone to purchase it for them.
Might sound like I am bashing women but it’s so you can see the hot mess coming and pick the good one for yourself (until sophomore year hits then no matter what some shit is happening just accept it). And believe me if you think you have a good one, just check periodically until she is close to 30 or so.
The whole your dick is not made of Platinum now needs some explaining. The years go by and i promise you that even if you find the perfect woman and never have any issues that you will hit the second half of your thirties and realize you were too fucking picky about the chics when you were 18-25. Seriously the ones that are okay/cute enough (especially without makeup) are usually the good ones. They realize the guys only start engaging when they are drunk and they just want someone who will show interest sober, then you two get drunk and recreate your favorite porn scene. Really the hot pristine girls at that age knew and did nothing in bed. The girl nextdoor wanted to catch your attention with the sex and you should let her, seriously for all us 30 and 40 somethings that realize how stupid we were at your age. I remember this chic I met at a house party not necessarily even all that cute but she had an ass and her pants showed it, she could “Kung Fu grip” my dick with her pussy. That shit is real they can flex the muscles with some practice, that shit blew my mind. I thought I had imagined it because we were drunk by the time it happened but nope she could totally grip it and it felt like she didn’t want to give it back…i loved it
Do it for us so at least our mistakes can help someone. (Chances are if we do have sons there’s no way we would risk saying this because the wife would find out.)

I know it’s a modern world and I promise you if you are into guys that most if not all of that translates so still go have fun and use the knowledge for your benefit while avoiding the pitfalls.

Ultimately wait until your later 20s before you try to settle down. It’s the fair way for both of you to get the young years craziness out of yourselves.

There are plenty of good ones out there however age,friends, life, society and so on tends to cover it up so keep that in mind. Really we all have to have some shitty relationships before we can appreciate a good one.

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Yeah I totally wrote you a rant without connecting you on here. Should be the post just before this one.

That starts at about 16 here, I’ve seen girls full on deck guys (whom they may or may not be casually seeing) when they’re pissed off and drunk… the two go hand in hand, some of these individuals are just terrible people. The drinking age is 18, but 16 at privately rented out venues/parties (as of 2019 I believe now parental notice is required for permission for underage kids to drink at house parties)… but you’d be surprised how chill parents are here with booze, half the time the parents buy the kids bottles of vodka (but weed is still a huge nono, unless it’s the ACT). Otherwise given the age is 18, it’s not hard to find a kid to buy you booze if you’re underage… that and depending on the place one doesn’t ALWAYS get carded. At clubs, forget about getting in, they’re so draconian they’ll actually SCAN youre ID onto a database that tracks you’re location as you go club hopping… security guards will peep their heads over to view you in the toilet stalls (only in Australia…), so when I’m taking a shit I’ll see some guys head peeking over… they’re looking for guys snorting coke/ketamine in the bathrooms, which happens ALL the time… funny thing is, they aren’t looking to get you in trouble… they’re looking for drugs to keep, then they’ll usher you out of the club without filing a report/anything. If I recall correctly underage possession isn’t illegal here (same with tobacco)… the age for private consumption with parents is… there is no age if I recall. BUT… laws regarding illicit substances are draconian, you CAN get a prison sentence for a tab of LSD.

Can tell you from experience it’s easier to get with guys haha. I think I prefer girls, but I appear to be open to hooking up with guys/men if I’m sufficiently drunk (repressed desires?)… I stopped drinking entirely (again) when I got back from Europe, as my tendency to binge drink is problematic, so I just stay away from it aside from extremely special occasions… the sheer amount of systemic damage ethanol induces is fairly extreme, far surpassing that of most compounds (including anabolic steroids)

Thank you :slight_smile:

I fucking hate this societal double standard. It’s toxic, unfair, engrained ideology that implies somehow the notion of a woman’s consent differs from that of a man. Yes, the primitive belief that men are generally more virile does pertain significance, however it isn’t to say women don’t have urges and needs, and to stigmatise women for setting out to satisfy said urges is fucked up… in my opinion (and I’m sure the majorities) women should be able to sleep around the same way men can, there’s no difference… if you’re horny, you’re comfortable with you’re partner and respect boundaries I see no reason as to why women should be labelled a slut when men can replicate the exact same behavior and be praised… makes no sense to me…

Anyway, thanks for the advice, appreciate it :slight_smile:

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I guess I am in a philosophical / quoting philosophers mood. Voiltare and I know I am not spelling it correct. Anyways back in 1700s or whenever he was alive in France in the higher end of society they would get together for orgies basically just because the sun came up. So he went to one orgy then the next week or whenever they asked him to come back and his response was “once a philosopher twice a pervert.” What I take from that is you could and should experience whatever even if it might not be within what you want to be in your world. Just go experience it and know. You can use this quote to explain just about anything that is (not saying your actions are negative or anything) not extra wholesome or expected of you. (That “expected of you” is the important part). Mind you if you make a habit of it then the quote doesn’t work. I say go experience it, your generation gets to be free-er than the preceding one and so on, so enjoy it.

I don’t mean to preach or whatever just last night I let myself have a couple beers which is not a regular thing and tonight i have been reminiscing. I went to this crazy ultra strict boarding school that was classified as a behavior modification camp for teens. Basically private brainwash prison for teenagers. Butter, sugar and juice with meals were privileges, it took over a week of no infractions to possibly earn enough points for the butter, sugar and juice. Anyways when you had a simple infraction you called it a warning and it was one point, ten warnings turned into a class two infraction. Starting at class two you had to go to the worksheet room. In the worksheet room they made you listen to one of supposedly ten tapes then answer a worksheet to see if you played attention. We could all recite the tapes word by word and there were not ten of them. Maybe 5-7 tapes existed, probably because someone lost it and broke the other ones. A number of the tapes were of philosophers. The “once a philosopher, twice a pervert” has stuck with me and I have used it more than once. Remember it and use it, because it works if you quote a philosopher. So remember the whole Voltaire being a French philosopher part too People think you are going to go on a rant (ha ha maybe you do anyways) and even if they don’t agree they let you win because you look like you have a thoughtful prepared response or that you can think on your feet. Seriously that quote will come in handy one day I promise you. It explains anything, any weird impulse, any bad decision that you get caught doing, anything.