PCT Source?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Loucifer1 wrote:
Hey, fellows, besides what’s going on behind the scenes and who’s paying who for whatsoever… Does anyone really know which company really has the best bang per buck. Cause you know money talks in the real world. I mean I’m looking at one company selling the same exact thing for double the price of the other one. Anyone know why? Does the more expensive one have or do something the other one don’t.I just don’t see the justification.

There is little difference in most of them. Lion uses flavored suspensions. IBE uses unflavored solutions. The big difference is taste, and price.

There have been some reports circling around the lion empire that his dosages are hit and miss. And another huge documented story about his IGF product being full of BSA (Bovine Serum Albumin). His rep is cratering, and I wouldn’t touch his stuff now with a ten foot pole. [/quote]

Re: Lion

This month I believe has been his biggest sales month in history.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Re: Lion

This month I believe has been his biggest sales month in history.[/quote]

Re: Lion

Posted by John Benz at Super Muscle:

[i]posted by IBBAdmin, Feb 16 2006…

Spidey over at SM took up a collection from a few of us because we all felt this crap was snake oil … We bought a bottle from him and Spidey tested it … WE we’re right …

The test is conclusive. There is BSA in the IGF-1 and a buttload of it! The lighter signal for HSA may come from the cross-reactivity I mentioned (very likely).

We also tested it to see if it was

  1. receptor grade
  2. human IGF-1.

There was initially some ambiguity as to whether some of the IGF was porcine (pig) because of some slight cross reactivities. The diluted experiment clarified that. It is human and it is receptor grade. unfortunately, we ran out of sample before we could do the diluted run to determine if the HSA signal was just cross reactivity related or if there is actually a little HSA in there along with the gobs of BSA. I am 99% certain there is no HSA and here is why:

Pharmaceutical preps of IGF-1 do exist but they are the whole intact protein, not just the binding region (receptor grade). No receptor grade IGF or other receptor grade protein was ever developed for human use or even animal use. Receptor grade proteins are strictly used to determine binding constants and stuff like that in a petre dish. Since receptor grade was never intended for human use, it is produced in growth medium that contains BSA as a stabilizer (BSA is cheap). There would be no incentive to use more expensive HSA to stabilize something not intended for human use. When it was lyophylized (freeze dried), the BSA was included to stabilize the LR3 IGF-1. Without it, the IGF-1 would just fall apart in storage.

Lion does not make this stuff. There are only a handful of places that do make it (5 to be exact). He has to buy it from one of those companies. They all likely use BSA to stabilize their product.

This stuff isn’t fit to inject into an animal, little lone a human being.

I will try to be more clear in my expanation here: Lion’s stuff was applied to a plate with BSA antibodies in one column and HSA antibodies in another separate column. When Lion’s stuff was applied to antibodies for BSA they lit up like Chernobyl! Definite positive for BSA. There was also a lighter reaction with the HSA antibodies. This was caused by our overloading the sample and causing a little cross reactivity. BSA and HSA are very similar proteins after all.

Just for argument’s sake, let’s say that it was HSA and no BSA was present. What we would have seen is the opposite. The HSA antibodies would have lit up brightly and the BSA antibodies would have had a fainter reaction (due to cross-reactivity).

DO you see what I am saying here? There is absolutely no doubt that Lion’s LR3 IGF-1 contains BSA and a LOT of it. 100% sure; stake my life and reputation on it!

There is some slight chance that there is ALSO a little HSA in it. Since we couldn’t do the diluted run, we can’t rule that out completely. I really doubt that is the case though. Ultimately though, it doesn’t matter. The fact that there are high levels of BSA in it make this product dangerous to life and health. Any small amounts of HSA present won’t change that.

Lion has lied to you and everyone else about nearly every aspect of this product.

LION SAYS: receptor grade stuff incorporates the whole sequence for IGF-1 with a 13 amino acid side chain to prolong biological half life. It was developed for human use and is the cleanest, best stuff to use for maximum results. (paraphrasing of course)

THE TRUTH: Receptor grade IGF-1 is not the whole intact protein and was never intended to use in live animals or humans. It does not possess the same biological activity of native IGF-1 and in fact, may actually hinder one from utilizing their own IGF-1. It can only be detrimental to growth; not helpful to it.

LION SAYS: The diluent he sells is the best one because it contains the binding protein neccesary for stabilizing the IGF-1 (thus the BP in the name). All other diluents are inferior.

THE TRUTH: The diluent he sells contains no protein of any kind. It is just salt water. The BP in the name simply refers to the grade of saline. Fisher Scientific sells no less than five different grades including USP and BP grades. BP refers to British Pharmacopeia (USP stands for US Pharmacopeia).

LION SAYS: The product is completely human grade and contains no BSA (as per PM’s to Skyefire and myself on Superior Muscle).

THE TRUTH: The product, in fact, contains an enormous amount of BSA and even if it didn’t, it could not be considered “human grade” since receptor grade proteins were not developed for use in ANY living thing, little lone humans.

Something to keep in mind from one of my earlier posts on this subject. These growth mediums stabilized with BSA contain many more bovine proteins and hormones than just BSA. What they do is just add plain old bovine serum (or fetal bovine calf serum). The serum contains all the proteins and hormones you would expect to find in cow blood. Albumin is just the major protein fraction found in blood so there is more of that than any of the others. There is still going to be things like bovine insulin, bovine growth hormone, etc. A similar danger of immune response exists for all of these bovine proteins; not just the BSA.

Remember, mice injected with HSA DIE WITHIN 4 OR 5 DAYS due to massive hemmorages in their kidneys. This is due to an immune response where they begin forming antibodies to mouse serum albumin. This causes their blood to start clotting all over the place. Apparently, this first happens in their kidneys and the blood clots rupture blood vessels and they bleed to death before further immune response can clot the rest of their blood up. Looks pretty damn painful actually…

To cap it all off, Lion could well be in legal peril for trademark and patent infringement. The “Long” in Long R3 IGF-1 does not refer to the extra amino acid chain. “Long” is a trademarked name associated with the developers of the derivitization process for attaching the extra amino acid chain. By using the name “Long R3-IGF-1” to make a profit without a specific marketing agreement and permission, he is commiting trademark infringement. If he is having it made independant of the 5 companies liscensed to make it and selling it for profit, he is committing patent infringement.

EMAIL FROM LAB TO LION:

One of the scientist on my board decided to test the superior-research
IGF for bovine serum albumin (BSA) and the results came back that
there was infact a large amount of BSA in the product.

The following is what he said about BSA.

"1. Any bovine derived protein carries the risk of prion infection
(mad cow disease). Prion infections are not only incurable and
invariably fatal, they are in fact UNTREATABLE.

  1. I would expect a severe immune response to BSA if injected into a human.

  2. BSA solutions are not a single protein but a mixture of proteins,
    hormones, etc. Many of these proteins and hormones are similar
    (although not identicle) to human proteins. If a human began
    developing antibodies to these bovine proteins, they might also
    develop antibodies to the human equivalents. In short, the person may
    develop a kind of autoimmune disease where they are developing
    defensive antibodies to their own proteins and hormones. Depending of
    what proteins we are talking about, this could be quite serious
    indeed. If you develop antibodies to bovine insulin, chances are high
    you will develop antibodies to human insulin as well. Now, you are
    extremely insulin resistent. You have a form of nearly untreatable
    type II diabetes."

This is also something that he sent to me that explains a little more
about the test.

"Lion’s stuff was applied to a plate with BSA antibodies in one column
and HSA antibodies in another separate column. When Lion’s stuff was
applied to antibodies for BSA they lit up like Chernobyl! Definite
positive for BSA. There was also a lighter reaction with the HSA
antibodies. This was caused by our overloading the sample and causing
a little cross reactivity. BSA and HSA are very similar proteins after
all.

Just for argument’s sake, let’s say that it was HSA and no BSA was
present. What we would have seen is the opposite. The HSA antibodies
would have lit up brightly and the BSA antibodies would have had a
fainter reaction.

DO you see what I am saying here? There is absolutely no doubt that
Lion’s LR3 IGF-1 contains BSA and a LOT of it. 100% sure; stake my
life and reputation on it!

There is some slight chance that there is ALSO a little HSA in it.
Since we couldn’t do the diluted run, we can’t rule that out
completely. I really doubt that is the case though. Ultimately though,
it doesn’t matter. The fact that there are high levels of BSA in it
make this product dangerous to life and health. Any small amounts of
HSA present won’t change that.

I know this is terrible news and not what you want to hear but
there it is…

We need to warn people."[/i]

You can believe people who are only it for the free stuff and the money, or you can believe people that do this shit because they love it. The choice is yours. Hooker has already stated numerous times in numerous places where he falls down on the greed-o-meter.

I know the owner of Lion Nutrition, and he’s a good dude. I’m sure whatever he says about his products is true, and is true to the best of his knowledge.

I’m not impressed with what XYZ-guy on ABC-Board says, when they really aren’t professionals in the industry, in any way. No offence.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

You can believe people who are only it for the free stuff and the money, or you can believe people that do this shit because they love it. The choice is yours. Hooker has already stated numerous times in numerous places where he falls down on the greed-o-meter. [/quote]

By definition, if you don’t believe people who are “in it for the money,” then you don’t believe professionals of any sort? I mean…you don’t believe doctors when they diagnose you, lawyers when they defend you, your mechanic when he fixes your car, the cashier at 7-11 when they ring up your order, etc…

I mean…all professionals do what they do for money, and if you don’t believe people who get paid for what they do, then you don’t believe any professionals…

I mean…I’m a professional, I write about these chemicals for a living, and I feel like this gives my opinions a weight that swole420muscle69NinjaDude’s opinions just don’t have…(or whatever random guy on some random steroid board says…).

Sorry if this is offensive, and sorry if I’m not a “good bro” for saying this. I just don’t weigh the opinions of those you mention very highly. Nor do most in the upper eschlon of this industry.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
I know the owner of Lion Nutrition, and he’s a good dude. I’m sure whatever he says about his products is true, and is true to the best of his knowledge.

I’m not impressed with what XYZ-guy on ABC-Board says, when they really aren’t professionals in the industry, in any way. No offence.

[/quote]

I guess you don’t have a prob;em with what the lab report said about the quality of his IGF. Maybe you are too busty getting free chems to worry about an independent assay of supposedly “human grade IGF”, which is a fucking lie in it’s very exisitance, as there is no such thing as human grade IGF.

I’m sure lion is a real sweetie pie, just because you say so. But would I trust his IGF product that he fabricates as being “human grade”? Not even on your life, hooker.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You can believe people who are only it for the free stuff and the money, or you can believe people that do this shit because they love it. The choice is yours. Hooker has already stated numerous times in numerous places where he falls down on the greed-o-meter.

By definition, if you don’t believe people who are “in it for the money,” then you don’t believe professionals of any sort? I mean…you don’t believe doctors when they diagnose you, lawyers when they defend you, your mechanic when he fixes your car, the cashier at 7-11 when they ring up your order, etc…

I mean…all professionals do what they do for money, and if you don’t believe people who get paid for what they do, then you don’t believe any professionals…

I mean…I’m a professional, I write about these chemicals for a living, and I feel like this gives my opinions a weight that swole420muscle69NinjaDude’s opinions just don’t have…(or whatever random guy on some random steroid board says…).

Sorry if this is offensive, and sorry if I’m not a “good bro” for saying this. I just don’t weigh the opinions of those you mention very highly. Nor do most in the upper eschlon of this industry. [/quote]

You are not a “bro” in any sense of the word.

I trust professionals when I go to them and pay them for the advice/information I recieve.

What I don’t trust is someone that tells me they recieve no compensation for recommending someone that charges twice the the markewt price for their product.

Do I buy Nikes because MJ makes 20 mill a year telling me to? Nope. Do I buy Nike Drivers and golf balls because Tiger makes 20 mill telling me to? Nope.

Do you think everyone out there is a mindless lemming that should follow your advice because you get paid by lion and AG to whore for them? I am sorry if you think that qualifies me as a “bro”. I think it qualifies me as a smeller of bullshit marketing.

But you think whatever you need to if it will make you feel taller and more important. I could give a shit.

People come to this board to give and get advice from other people who experiment with “extreme” ways to achieve more than peak performance from their bodies.

We are in a way “brothers in arms” because we all share a common goal.

When someone on the board gives advice in a link to a $19.95 book, they are considered usless.

Dont expect any kind words here, but the D-bol children will probably build an effigy of you on some other board.

So help some guys out and contribute to the general knowledge pool of the board without trying to sell something… as I am sure you have a lot of knowledge.

[quote]Viking69 wrote:
People come to this board to give and get advice from other people who experiment with “extreme” ways to achieve more than peak performance from their bodies.

We are in a way “brothers in arms” because we all share a common goal.

When someone on the board gives advice in a link to a $19.95 book, they are considered usless.

Dont expect any kind words here, but the D-bol children will probably build an effigy of you on some other board.

So help some guys out and contribute to the general knowledge pool of the board without trying to sell something… as I am sure you have a lot of knowledge.

[/quote]

You said it. EXCELLENT post.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I guess you don’t have a prob;em with what the lab report said about the quality of his IGF. Maybe you are too busty getting free chems to worry about an independent assay of supposedly “human grade IGF”, which is a fucking lie in it’s very exisitance, as there is no such thing as human grade IGF.

I’m sure lion is a real sweetie pie, just because you say so. But would I trust his IGF product that he fabricates as being “human grade”? Not even on your life, hooker.

[/quote]

I haven’t seen the lab reports you’re talking about. Feel free to send them to me.

[quote]Viking69 wrote:
People come to this board to give and get advice from other people who experiment with “extreme” ways to achieve more than peak performance from their bodies.

We are in a way “brothers in arms” because we all share a common goal.

When someone on the board gives advice in a link to a $19.95 book, they are considered usless.

Dont expect any kind words here, but the D-bol children will probably build an effigy of you on some other board.

So help some guys out and contribute to the general knowledge pool of the board without trying to sell something… as I am sure you have a lot of knowledge.

[/quote]

I contribute quite regularly, post all the time, answer all the questions in my locker-room thread, and answer 100% of the PMs and e-mails I get…all for free. But yeah, in the end, sorry, I want people to buy my book also.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
I haven’t seen the lab reports you’re talking about. Feel free to send them to me.
[/quote]

As soon as you send me the Financials proving he had his “biggest month ever”.

Deal?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
I haven’t seen the lab reports you’re talking about. Feel free to send them to me.

As soon as you send me the Financials proving he had his “biggest month ever”.

Deal?[/quote]

I don’t have access to those. Just his word, which is enough for me. But what I am claiming (his biggest month) is not really material or imnportant when measured against your claim that lab tests exist showing he is producing a dangerous product.

If you send me the lab test, I can call the lab to confirm them, and if they say that the test is valid, then I can Bring it to several people’s attention, and have the situation dealt with in a manner benefiting everyone. I mean…I can call his biggest sponsor on the phone (which I do, daily, anyway) and bring it to his attention.

But without a copy of the lab tests, and only the word of people posting on the internet under assumed “handles” then you have to understand, I can’t really bring any of this to light as credible information to anyone of importance.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
I don’t have access to those. Just his word, which is enough for me. But what I am claiming (his biggest month) is not really material or imnportant when measured against your claim that lab tests exist showing he is producing a dangerous product. [/quote]

You made it material by making the unsubstantiated claim first. If you have nothing more than the word of a guy who is admittedly selling “human-grade” Long r3 IGF, then maybe you shouldn’t be making the claims you did. You do see the problem in saying you are selling “human grade” right? Right?

[quote]
If you send me the lab test, I can call the lab to confirm them, and if they say that the test is valid, then I can Bring it to several people’s attention, and have the situation dealt with in a manner benefiting everyone. I mean…I can call his biggest sponsor on the phone (which I do, daily, anyway) and bring it to his attention. [/quote]

You are the most powerful guru on the in the internet. I will not do your grunt work for you. I posted a copy of the correspondence with the lab. I happen to trust the folks that had the product tested. Do you have proof that they shouldn’t be trusted? I have proof that Lion shouldn’t be.

[quote]
But without a copy of the lab tests, and only the word of people posting on the internet under assumed “handles” then you have to understand, I can’t really bring any of this to light as credible information to anyone of importance.[/quote]

How did I know this would be your play? Whatever Hooker. Wait - that’s an assumed handle, isn’t it? Should we dismiss all you have said under that handle? Oh and what about rainjack? Damn - those handles are scary, aren’t they? And very convenient for changing the subject when you are void of any proof of your position. I have offered up proof. You have not.

Until you can do better than just thinking real hard and believing a guy that pays you to promote his stuff - I don’t think you have any room to be impuning people that use “handles”. Fyi - this is the internet. Everyone uses “handles”.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
I don’t have access to those. Just his word, which is enough for me. But what I am claiming (his biggest month) is not really material or imnportant when measured against your claim that lab tests exist showing he is producing a dangerous product.

You made it material by making the unsubstantiated claim first. If you have nothing more than the word of a guy who is admittedly selling “human-grade” Long r3 IGF, then maybe you shouldn’t be making the claims you did. You do see the problem in saying you are selling “human grade” right? Right?

If you send me the lab test, I can call the lab to confirm them, and if they say that the test is valid, then I can Bring it to several people’s attention, and have the situation dealt with in a manner benefiting everyone. I mean…I can call his biggest sponsor on the phone (which I do, daily, anyway) and bring it to his attention.

You are the most powerful guru on the in the internet. I will not do your grunt work for you. I posted a copy of the correspondence with the lab. I happen to trust the folks that had the product tested. Do you have proof that they shouldn’t be trusted? I have proof that Lion shouldn’t be.

But without a copy of the lab tests, and only the word of people posting on the internet under assumed “handles” then you have to understand, I can’t really bring any of this to light as credible information to anyone of importance.

How did I know this would be your play? Whatever Hooker. Wait - that’s an assumed handle, isn’t it? Should we dismiss all you have said under that handle? Oh and what about rainjack? Damn - those handles are scary, aren’t they? And very convenient for changing the subject when you are void of any proof of your position. I have offered up proof. You have not.

Until you can do better than just thinking real hard and believing a guy that pays you to promote his stuff - I don’t think you have any room to be impuning people that use “handles”. Fyi - this is the internet. Everyone uses “handles”.

[/quote]

Ok. SO you aren’t going to provide any lab tests. Then I can’t really help to resolve any issues you have or may have with Lion Nutrition allegedly selling a dangerous product.

In fact, without those lab tests, posted and independantly verified, I would caution everyone to take these allegations with a huge grain of salt.

There is no proof of them, as far as everyone should be concerned, as long as lab tests proving the veracity of any such claims aren’t available for all to see and verify.

You made a claim about a product, proof was asked for, and you refused to provide it, for all to see. I feel that claim ought to be rejected by all who are objectively engaged in this topic, until such time as proof is given and verified.

This isn’t anything personal, but rather I feel a valid criteria for determining the validity of any such claims on a product, not just yours.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Ok. SO you aren’t going to provide any lab tests. Then I can’t really help to resolve any issues you have or may have with Lion Nutrition allegedly selling a dangerous product.[/quote]

I said I would when you proved that Lion just had is biggest month in history. You are the only one that said they “wouldn’t” do anything. Nice try at the table turn. I posted what I know from folks I trust. You haven’t even done that. You know about the lab report if you are indeed as close to Lion as you brag about. This is a straw man. You are way too predictable, hooker.

As would I cation anyone from listening to the baseless claims of one of Lion’s employees.

I posted what I had. I think it is a valid concern. That is more than I can say for you and your opinions - which oddly enough - is all you have presented at this time.

No - I make no claims that are not substantiated by the post I made. I am sorry that you don’t consider it a viable concern simply because where it came from. I think selling potentially Mad Cow ladened BSA IGF products is a real concern. I also think it is shady to say you have “human grade” IGF when there is no such thing. But dismiss away, hooker. Dismiss away.

[quote]This isn’t anything personal, but rather I feel a valid criteria for determining the validity of any such claims on a product, not just yours.
[/quote]

It’s not my claims. I am going off what I posted (with permission). I think that defending the guy that pays you lends to less credibility than anything you have raised against me.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I caution anyone from listening to the baseless claims of one of Lion’s employees.
[/quote]

I’m not anyone’s employee. I’m an independant contractor, I suppose, free to write for whomever and about whatever I want.

I am, it must be said in fairness, not under any contract to anyone, except for with my partner Brian. That is, however, a partnership and not a contract per se, with respects to the book I wrote.

Lion, in short, does not pay me for anything…unless I write something for him (a profile, etc…). And currently I’m not working for him on any articles. Ergo, Lion is not paying me for anything, currently, and there is no plan for him to do so in the forseeable future.

As I said, you’ve made claims, and can not back them up with lab reports, and I think that is the issue at hand.

You’ve made certain claims, that we ought to not buy a certain product, because a lab has found it to be unsafe.

When I asked for the proof of that claim, you refused to provide it.

Ergo, we ought not put any stock in that claim, at present time.

Even if Lion were paying me a million dollars to say this, I think those who are looking objectively at my statements must now wonder why proof is being refused to be provided. And those who are objectively reading this must conclude, as I have, that claims for the existence of such proof are now on very unstable ground.

Interestingly, I have, in this thread been claimed to be presently and concurrently on the payroll for 2 competing companies, and my opinion on each company has been claimed to be invalid because of this.

However, when I ask for proof of validity as to the veracity of other claims, it has been refused.

I simply ask the reader of this thread to decide whose position is more defensible. I have admitted/explained my relationship with all parties involved. And Even some who are not!

Yet…my requests for the most base level of proof for others’ claims have been denied repeatedly.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
I’m not anyone’s employee. I’m an independant contractor, I suppose, free to write for whomever and about whatever I want.

I am, it must be said in fairness, not under any contract to anyone, except for with my partner Brian. That is, however, a partnership and not a contract per se, with respects to the book I wrote.

Lion, in short, does not pay me for anything…unless I write something for him (a profile, etc…). And currently I’m not working for him on any articles.

As I said, you’ve made claims, and can not back them up with lab reports, and I think that is the issue at hand.[/quote]

I presented a concern I had wrt to Lion. What I posted is what it is. You don’t like where it came from so you want more proof. That is completely fair. When I get more info, I will post it.

To make it out to be an outlandish claim simply because of who was having the testing done, or where the post originated is the issue is ducking and dodging at it’s finest. I trust the source of the post. You don’t.

You trust Lion. I don’t. You get paid by Lion. I don’t You recieve free chems from Lion - I don’t. It has nothing to do with my refusal to do anything.

What it does have to do with is the mortal seriousness of an unsuspecting individual thinking he is injecting “human grade” IGF and instead injecting himself with Mad Cow Disease.

If you are as close to the pulse of the AAS world as you claim, why are you in a pissing match over me producing a lab report? If you are indeed the helper you have bragged about being - could you not use you vast capital and find this all important lab report?

I am not the guru you fashion yourself to be. I am just an accountant that is gravely concerned about keeping folks from killing themselves as as restult of being mislead.

Surely you could perform one selfless act and quit squabbling with a nobody such as myself. You could very well be right. It could be a baseless claim perpetrated by an angry customer. But what if you are wrong? This isn’t the same thing as questionable advice, or pissing over which research chem site to patronize. Would you not agree?

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I said I would when you proved that Lion just had is biggest month in history. You are the only one that said they “wouldn’t” do anything. Nice try at the table turn. I posted what I know from folks I trust. You haven’t even done that. You know about the lab report if you are indeed as close to Lion as you brag about. This is a straw man. You are way too predictable, hooker.

[/quote]

A strawman is the informal fallacy that occurs when I claim you are making an argument that you aren’t, then proceed to knock down the weakened version of your argument with my own.

I don’t believe I’ve presented a weak version of any of your arguments.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

You, on the other hand, are guilty of the informal fallacies known as “Ad homenim”

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes a personal attack on person A, specifically their character.
Therefore A’s claim is false.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

You also fall prey to the “tu quoque” version of this too, at times, in your arguments against me.

I also feel that you use several other informal fallacies in your argument in this thread, such as appeal to popularity, etc…

www.nizkor.org details many such fallacies if you’re interested.

I have a degree in Philosophy, with my concentration in both Symbolic and Advanced Sentential Logic and the English Language, as well as a degree in the latter. So I feel confident that I have not been using a strawman fallacy, and that you have used several informal fallacies in your inductive arguments both here…and abroad.

So what’s the egg-head definition for ducking the subject? You do that everywhere you get in an argument. Especially when you know you are wrong.

You did that in this thread at least three times already. You make claims that you can’t back up with anything even remotely resembling the truth. You impine the proof that is presented in support of my position for no real reason, and now you feel the need to school me on proper terminology.

You are wrong. Period. You are proven wrong on every forum in which people are actuallu allowed to post against you without being censored, and you are losong this one here in spite of several deleted posts that will never see the light of day.
And you have yet to answer a single question posed to you. But that is classic Hooker. Too bad you can’t have me kicked off this site like you do your enemies on other sites.

Label this under what ever fallic symbol cranks your motor there, big guy. You have shown more about yourself than you realize in this thread. Would you even be on T-Nation at all if you weren’t whoring your book?

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
rainjack wrote:

I have a degree in Philosophy[/quote]

So you can think deep thoughts about being unemployed?
Sorry, always loved that joke. Seriously though, I think the point that is trying to be made here is that while not receiving money from these people, you ARE being compensated in fact through the items you received free of charge (which have a set monetary value). That will tend to make anything favorable you say about these people seem biased, and anything negative you would say seem more striking…unfortunate as it may be, that’s just the way it is.

As far as the lab info goes, the report was posted…does it say (or can we find out) what lab it was from? If so, contact them yourself and you’ll do much for your reputation here, or even just drop the topic…but by continuing to go on and on like this it just reinforces the view (true or not) that you are doing nothing but covering your interests.