PCT Recommended

[Newbie101]

I’m genuinely curios as just finished 4th week on cycle and keep seeing conflicting reports and views on the correct way to use pct.
Cycle is very basic -
500mg test e per week 10 weeks
40mg ed Winstrol week 8-10

Ok going to keep it really simple. What do people prefer and think works best?

Option A) - Nolva only
2 weeks after cycle
Run 6 weeks at 20mg per day?

Option B) Nolva and Clomid
Option C) Nolva and HCG
Option D) Clomid only.
50mg ed for 4 weeks.

Leaning towards option D at the moment. Feel like nolva was not strong enough on my last pct.

Any advice is much appreciated.

[pete101]

20mg of Nolva has the same effect as 150-200mg of clomid. You should either use nolva on the cycle 20mg/day to keep the testies going or use 200-300iu HCG e3d for 2 weeks at the and of the cycle, stoping 1 week before starting pct.
Some studies suggest that nolva and clomid should not be taken together since they compete for the same receptor and thus decreasing effectivness. The duration of your PCT should be aproximetly as long as the duration of your cycle. You should taper nolva. During PCT a low dose of aromatise inhibitor is recomended, which should be continued after the PCT for 1-2 weeks to avoid rebound. 20mg of nolva is plenty compared to 40mg dose there is no difference in effects. Read the stickies: The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong - #35 by cycobushmaster

[Newbie101]

Thanks for your reply Pete.

Will definitely look at getting some HCG as a bit too late now to start the Nolva.

I have read about the Nolva being 20mg for 6 weeks / duration of cycle.
What about clomid though? What would the recommendation be here - went through the sticky and not finding much on clomid per say?

[5_01]

Nolva is way more effective than clomid mg per mg

HCG (which will get your ladies pregnant on cycle) is the way to go. HCG plus nolva would be a lock.

[Newbie101]

Thanks man Appreciate the advice!

[5_01]

As a note HCG is a hormone derived from pregnant women that causes the testes to produce testosterone (and sperm) while taking test exogenously

[pete101]

Sorry, i can’t really give you advice on that, i only used clomid once so i’m not an expert in the dosing. But if you insist on useing it than 100mg on the first week, than 50 mg on the rest of the pct is the usual doseage.

[KSman]

The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong

The advice and practices I am now seeing in this forum are horrible. The fact that is has not [yet] crippled some guys is not the determining factor. The issues re high dose hCG and high dose SERMs was resolved here around 8 years ago and that perspective has been lost. More is not better and more can be harmful. hCG or SERM use during a cycle should stimulating LH receptors at levels that normal LH lab range. If you expose LH receptors to high levels of LH, hCG or LH+hCG then transition to nor…

If you prevent the testes from shutting, down, PCT need not be long.
PCT should start right a way, do not wait weeks. Can be after a T taper.
PCT needs time to allow any high levels of E2 to be cleared before stopping SERM in PCT.

[Newbie101]

Thanks for all the advice.

Read the stickies and followed the links. Pretty sold on Nolva > Clomid.

One piece of advice I saw was to run PCT MINIMUM for half the length of the cycle - so 5 weeks for me.
Half way through my cycle so a bit late to have run Nolva through it unfortunately.

Not sure how to taper the Nolva but keep seeing 20mg/nolva a day for 6 weeks being common advice? How better could I run this?

I had not planned for HCG in my budget, if I was unable to afford it would it be a critical factor in my PCT? I do understand their importance - they help the testes restart in producing testosterone but how critical would it be to a successful PCT?

[dt79]

@pete101

20mg of Nolva has the same effect as 150-200mg of clomid. You should either use nolva on the cycle 20mg/day to keep the testies going or use 200-300iu HCG e3d for 2 weeks at the and of the cycle, stoping 1 week before starting pct.Some studies suggest that nolva and clomid should not be taken together since they compete for the same receptor and thus decreasing effectivness. The duration of your PCT should be aproximetly as long as the duration of your cycle. You should taper nolva. During PCT a low dose of aromatise inhibitor is recomended, which should be continued after the PCT for 1-2 weeks to avoid rebound. 20mg of nolva is plenty compared to 40mg dose there is no difference in effects. Read the stickies: The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong - #35 by cycobushmaster

This is a load of rubbish. Don’t fucking give advice if you don’t know what you are talking about.

[s0ulcr4ck3r]

What is your yapping all about? He has a very good point and thats what should be done,read KSman’s and cycobushmaster’s threads before attacking someone like that.
Only thing to rectify is HCG statement:
Credit goes to Vardas:
"
Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for pct.

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 days starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS
clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as
your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Minor atrophy is quickly reversed with proper Post Cycle Therapy. "

Source: Thoughts on Planning PCT - #73 by Vardas
The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong - #35 by cycobushmaster

Here, have a read and control your anger.

[pete101]

What exactly is rubbish? Please tell me so i can show that you are wrong. Everything i wrote can be find in the stickies and in KSman’s recomendations. What do you think would be correct?

[dt79]

20mg of Nolva has the same effect as 150-200mg of clomid.

https://forums.t-nation.com/t/thoughts-on-planning-pct/196825

“The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. .”

When you make a statement like this without context and with the wrong figure, an uninformed person reading this in the future may actually use 200g of clomid when he has no source for nolva. If he follows your recommendation of PCT = Cycle length, you will have some poor fool taking 200mg of clomid for 10-12 weeks.

You should either use nolva on the cycle 20mg/day to keep the testies going

This is an assumption based on alleged reports by people on TRT on normal doses of testosterone only. So far none of us have seen any. We currently have 1 member of this forum who has volunteered to go for bloodwork and post results. He is also only on a TRT dose of test.

I have said it may be possible on test only due to the estrogen blocking effect of a SERM and this may reduce suppression on higher than normal doses of test. However, suppression due stronger AR or progesterone receptor binding afinities of different compounds is not taken into account.

or use 200-300iu HCG e3d for 2 weeks at the and of the cycle, stoping 1 week before starting pct.

This is right.

Some studies suggest that nolva and clomid should not be taken together since they compete for the same receptor and thus decreasing effectivness.

This does not make sense but I don’t really care since using both SERMS together is generally not recommend here.

The duration of your PCT should be aproximetly as long as the duration of your cycle.

See above.

In addition, this is cyco’s thought process:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i think you could run nolva/PCT shorter, but no less than half the length of the cycle. it’s just that i stumbled into some research that showed tamoxifen/toremefin both continue to elevate testosterone for 3 months or so…"[/quote]

You should taper nolva.

This is right.

[quote]During PCT a low dose of aromatise inhibitor is recomended, which should be continued after the PCT for 1-2 weeks to avoid rebound. 20mg of nolva is plenty compared to 40mg dose there is no difference in effects. Read the stickies: The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong - #35 by cycobushmaster
[/quote]

No comment.

[dt79]

[quote=“s0ulcr4ck3r, post:11, topic:213803, full:true”]
What is your yapping all about? He has a very good point and thats what should be done,read KSman’s and cycobushmaster’s threads before attacking someone like that.Only thing to rectify is HCG statement:Credit goes to Vardas:"Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for pct.[/quote]

You are saying HCG should be used for PCT if not used on cycle? Why would you use HCG during PCT when it suppresses the top of the HPTA?

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 days starting 14 days after your first AAS dose.

Why wait 14 days? Did you not read your source?

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
FWIW, i find the test/stasis taper interesting, but any exogenous hormone is going to suppress natural production, even something like anavar, which many claim causes little to no suppression. the theory that 25mg of test won’t cause suppression is ludicrous, as there are numerous studies showing otherwise (15 mg of anavar decreased testosterone by 37% in 5 days, 10 mg of winstrol decreased testosterone by 55% in 14 days, 7.5 mg of testosterone for 4 days reduced LH/FSH 40%, WHO studies using 200 mg/wk of test for male birth control, etc…).[/quote]

At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Minor atrophy is quickly reversed with proper Post Cycle Therapy. "

Why? The half life of hcg is around 2-3 days.

Source: Thoughts on Planning PCT - #73 by Vardas The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong - #35 by cycobushmaster

Here, have a proper read this time.

[s0ulcr4ck3r]

I am quoting VARDAS about the HCG dt, it is not my own opinion, already stated that. I was talking about the bashing that occurred about the nolva/AI taper. As for me, i’d use HCG 250iu e4d throughout the cycle stopping 5-6 days before pct.

[dt79]

Yes I know. But you quoted him to make a point, which means you share his opinions. That is what I was responding to.

Now that it’s clarified it’s fine.

[s0ulcr4ck3r]

I guess that it is my bad then, excuse me for the mix up

[dt79]

It’s cool. The boards have been boring since the format change. We could do with some action around here lol.

[pete101]

When you make a statement like this without context and with the wrong figure, an uninformed person reading this in the future may actually use 200g of clomid

I told him to read the stickies which if he does than he will learn the context why i said the the nolvadex-clomid comparison and there he will find the effects of clomid on LHRH. Also in the comments below i told him that he should only use 50mg of clomid, but i would rather go with nolvadex.

You should either use nolva on the cycle 20mg/day to keep the testies going.

He does not uses strong steroids, but 500mg test and 40mg winstrol that’s why i dared to say he can use nolva during cycle, the purpose of this is not to maintain high fsh/lh level, but just enough so your natural testosterone levels won’t shot down completely. Of course if he would be using tren and d-bol i wouldn’t recomend it, because of the lack of knowledge during cycles that shots you down hard.
And it’s good that you mentioned the lack of bloodwork, during my next cycle i will do some tests about nolva use during cycle and post it here.

nolva and clomid should not be taken together since they compete for the same receptor and thus decreasing effectivness.

cycobushmaster:
-the practice of combining clomid and nolvadex for PCT, seems to be pointless, at best (and might be slightly counterproductive, and a waste of money).

The duration of your PCT should be aproximetly as long as the duration of your cycle.

I have taken this from cycobushmaster:
-for a basic 8 week test cycle, tamoxifen at 20 mg/day for 8 weeks following the cycle

I see that he later wrote that taking it for a few weeks less might have the same effects, but i would not take the chances with cutting down on pct time, nolvadex is ridiculously cheap and taking it for a few weeks longer won’t hurt anybody.

[dt79]

@pete101

I told him to read the stickies which if he does than he will learn the context why i said the the nolvadex-clomid comparison and there he will find the effects of clomid on LHRH. Also in the comments below i told him that he should only use 50mg of clomid, but i would rather go with nolvadex.

First, this is why I wrote:

When you make a statement like this without context and with the wrong figure, an uninformed person reading this in the future may actually use 200g of clomid…

Second, you are assuming people typically read past the first 3 posts of a sticky after you have provided them with that amount of information which, unfortunately, they wouldn’t be able to tell is flawed.

@pete101

He does not uses strong steroids, but 500mg test and 40mg winstrol that’s why i dared to say he can use nolva during cycle, the purpose of this is not to maintain high fsh/lh level, but just enough so your natural testosterone levels won’t shot down completely. Of course if he would be using tren and d-bol i wouldn’t recomend it, because of the lack of knowledge during cycles that shots you down hard.

If that was really what you meant, you still made it sound like it was the same as using HCG by writing “to keep the testis going”. There are people reading this now and in the future who value their fertility that need to understand the risk they are undertaking. How can you make a statement like this without so much as a disclaimer?

Dbol does not shut you down hard.

@pete101

nolva and clomid should not be taken together since they compete for the same receptor and thus decreasing effectivness.

cycobushmaster:-the practice of combining clomid and nolvadex for PCT, seems to be pointless, at best (and might be slightly counterproductive, and a waste of money).

I didn’t want to go into this but since you brought this up again…

This was his opinion and, yes, it may be pointless unless under certain circumstances because they both work through similar mechanisms. You somehow inferred the existence of studies showing competition for the same receptor being the reason for a decrease in effectiveness of each drug if taken together.

@pete101

I see that he later wrote that taking it for a few weeks less might have the same effects, but i would not take the chances with cutting down on pct time, nolvadex is ridiculously cheap and taking it for a few weeks longer won’t hurt anybody.

That is not what he wrote. Go read it again.

@pete101

And it’s good that you mentioned the lack of bloodwork, during my next cycle i will do some tests about nolva use during cycle and post it here.

This would be fantastic. It will be a big contribution here. Thank you.