Hi guys, been reading a lot on these forums and have got a lot of help from answers in other threads so far - thanks for that!
I’ve came up with an idea of what I want to run for my first cycle and I’ll include it below for context and feedback. (I’ve read about front loading and using certain orals at start or mid-cycle but I’m trying to keep things simple for my first cycle)
Test Enanthate - 500mg per week split into 2 pins on Mon/Thu.
Arimidex - 0.25mg EOD (I’ve heard its better to be safe than sorry and start taking an AI right from the start).
Week 15-19 (PCT):
Nolva - 40/40/20/20/10.
I’m pretty sure my test is dialled in, I’m sure some people will dispute the AI, but my main issue/question is about weeks 13 & 14.
I’ve seen a few things about HCG being used during cycle to keep testicular function but I’ve also read that it can desensitize LH receptors if you’re on it for that long… I’ve also seen a lot about HCG being good in the weeks leading up to PCT. I’m actually pretty sure it was on these forums somewhere that I read about doing this but can’t find the thread - they advised something like 4 shots over the course of the 2 weeks and to start with 2500iu for the first shot, then 1000iu for the second, and 750iu each for the last 2. I’ve also read that 500iu EOD is more than enough and anymore will cause the desentization I mentioned before. I’ve also read that an AI doesn’t work with HCG for some reason and to take a small dose of Nolva during this process because HCG causes a big rise in estrogen.
So my questions are:
- Is HCG a good idea between cycle and PCT to start proper testicular function again?
- (If so) What dosing is correct?
- Does an AI not work with HCG?
- Should an AI/SERM be taken with HCG to keep estrogen in control?
- Have I got all of this wrong and should I just be taking HCG throughout the cycle?
- (If so) How would I dose this and when would I stop taking the HCG?
A lot of questions but hopefully some of you that know a lot about this stuff can weigh in, I really want to make sure I have all of the knowledge I can before starting so that I can do this as safely and intelligently as possible.
Thanks in advance.
You answered your own question when you said keep it simple. Ditch the hcg.
Good point, but I suppose I’m more inclined to complicate things slightly more when it comes to PCT because I want to make sure I do it right and give my body every chance to recover HPTA.
Would the Nolva be enough to bring back testicular function/size and not leave me with a bunch of sides?
The current method of HCG is usage throughout the cycle to prevent shutdown. The old school method is blast it a couple of weeks right before PCT. It’s your choice. I have read that usage throughout provides better results but it wasn’t from a medical study so… As far as what dosage to take for the old school blast right before PCT, I don’t know. I would think a 5000iu kit spread out over 2-3 weeks like you wrote out would be a good starting point, you could see how this recovery goes then adjust for next cycle. The one thing you need to abide by is do not over lap HCG and PCT. HCG will hinder a proper PCT. The PCT is basically trying to kick start our HPTA loop so that our bodies make their own “HCG.”
Yes the HCG will make your balls aromatize testosterone and no amount of AI will stop or effect it. The question is, is that amount of estrogen enough to cause issues like gyno? Everyone is different so the only way to know is to do it. Now if that amount of estrogen is enough to cause gyno then yes you take a SERM like Nolvadex to block it. Probably something like 10mgs of Nolvadex every other day would be a good starting point.
Just so you know, plenty of guys only use Nolvadex for PCT and have a good recovery. The only way to know if you are one of them is to try. I remember my early cycles and wanting everything covered, there is nothing wrong with doing everything so that you have peace of mind. Minimal or extreme is ok. It comes down to what does it take for you to feel ok with your choices. After all you have to live with the consequences.
As far as taking an AI during cycle; we need estrogen to build muscle. It is very easy to over use an AI and tank your Estrogen. We want it in a window of acceptable levels. If you decide to definitely use it then I would start with 0.25 mgs of arimidex on the days you pin test, as in only twice a week at the beginning of your cycle.I bet that would be enough for most guys.
Now you didn’t state your body stats, body fat makes the Aromatase enzyme so the fatter you are the more your body will turn testosterone into estrogen.
I recommend reading up on signs of high and low estrogen in men and i recommend you re-read up a couple of times during your cycle for the first few cycles. It’s all to easy to forget one of the leading common signs and that might be the one you show.
Definitely agree with the whole peace of mind thing, I think having that peace of mind will make the experience a lot easier and more enjoyable for me.
The more I’ve researched the more I realise that HCG throughout the entire cycle is the better option, starting 2 weeks in. If I were to do the HCG throughout the cycle then, (Let’s say hypothetically that the amount of estrogen caused by the HCG is enough to cause me issues) should I forget about the AI EOD as mentioned and just use 10mg Nolva EOD in place of this?
There is no easy answer to the question. If the HCG causes enough estrogen to cause gyno then chances are that is enough to cause other issues. So if you just used Nolvadex then not only would you have the “HCG estrogen” you would also have the estrogen from the regular test aromatization.
Now so many guys don’t seem to have issues with estrogen when they run 500mgs per week. Yet others have issues at TRT levels.
Really the only way to know the answer to any of those is to do it. There is just no formula for X amount of test requires Y amount of arimidex. Even if there were our UGL products are not precise enough to facilitate that.
If you decide just to run a SERM like Nolvadex because you are running HCG then you will still have estrogen from the HCG/balls aromatization along with regular aromatization. That might only make you retain some water or it could destroy your libido. They only to know is to try it. As long as you have Nolvadex and arimidex on hand then you can address whatever pops up. I always say this to guys early in their cycling history, even if you don’t want to to use an AI I would still have one on hand because nobody wants a limp dick to go with their new double D tits.
You seem to have a much better grasp on this stuff versus 80-90% of the newer guys. You are using your head so you should be totally fine.
Yeah everything is individual, I understand that completely. I guess I’m just trying to get a general idea so I have something to base stuff on, seeing as I have no actual personal experience yet.
I think from all of the info I’ve read and received; I’ll run the HCG throughout the cycle and use the arimidex at 0.25mg EOD from the start to deal with the regular aromitization. Then if I begin to have issues with high estrogen symptoms due to the HCG, I’ll add Nolvadex at 10mg EOD as well, but hopefully just taking care of the regular aromitization with the arimidex will be enough to keep my levels in order.
Does the above seem good or would running Nolva & Arimidex at the same time conflict each other and cause further issues?
@now_i_care Thanks for taking the time to reply to all of this, you’re helping a lot in terms of putting my mind at ease, I appreciate it.
The amount of HCG you run during the cycle is not that high to cause issues in most cases. I run HCG starting week 4 or 5. HCG with very high doses or for prolonged periods is not a good idea.
Many suggest to skip HCG as a beginner, others the opposite. Long story short, there is no right answers, you should read, learn, decide and test on yourself based on educated decision.