T Nation

PCT Question Post PH


#1

I jumped on your forum to get educated about the stuff my husband starting taking and after discussing all of your thoughts with him, he agreed that getting more information about PCT needs from you all would be a good idea. He would have posted himself but is stuck working some crazy shifts right now. Anyway, here is some info on him and what he has been taking. He needs advice as to what PCT is needed and any other info he should have.

He is 36 years old, starting lifting again in January after an 8 year break, never used supplements. He is currently 180 pounds (5'9") and 7% body fat.

In April he started a 60 day cycle of SUS500 (already decided he won't do this again) taking 2 capsules a day. About 2 weeks ago he added Havoc (2 pills/day). His 60 days on SUS500 is about up- what does he need to do? He has received conflicting information about what he really needs. He did some basic research before he started but I think his sources weren't the best. He is guessing a PCT of tamoxifen (I think that is the right name)?

Should he stop the Havoc at the same time as the SUS500 or what? He is guessing 3 weeks of the tamoxifen, is that right?
I am sorry if these are mundane questions for you guys, I just want to make sure he does this part right---
please let me know if you need more information -
thanks!


#2

4 weeks of tamoxifen is standard protocol, 40mg/day for 2 weeks, then 20mg/day for 2 weeks.

He should stop the havoc at the same time, you can not be using any steroids when you PCT for obvious reasons.

If he intends to run the havoc longer than the SUS500 he will need to consider max cycle length, with PH’s most cycles are 4-6 weeks.

This is because if your not using test, you experience problems due to a lack of test, estrogen, and DHT in the system.

Max recommended cycle length using a methylated product is 6 weeks, liver toxicity is a concern if using longer.
Havoc is methylated and should not be used longer than 6 weeks.

You need to add up the total amount of time hes been on a steroid of any kind, SUS500 or havoc.

He should not run longer than 12 weeks or so, and its highly recommended that he not run past 6 using PH’s because of the test problem I mentioned above. You can run on the PH’s but its not a good idea, your body needs its own hormones or suitable replacements (many real steroids can be used for HRT, PH’s can not)

He needs the SERM the day he comes off. It has to be in his hands.

It takes a while for the places to get the SERMs shipped out if your buying online, if your buying local he needs to have it in his hands before he comes off.


#3

Isn’t this the same thread we just answered? Isn’t your reply cut and pasted WC? You know, the one where “you say SERM, i say Caber?”

Havoc is a progestin. I know that much… in the last thread the info wasn’t conflicting IMO - it was:

Drop the PH’s - the following day, use a SERM and some Caber, or if Caber is too expensive ($6 per 2mg) then use Selegiline ($2 per 50mg) instead.

Or am i mistaken?


#4

Thanks for the information. I have to admit I am a fish out of water in this area and don’t know enough to know if other posts apply to my husband’s situation. He has found himself taking stuff he didn’t know the full effects of (he did some research, but obviously not enough) and is trusting people whose advice may or may not be the best. So I appreciate those of you willing to entertain this conversation.

The latest, the gym owner has said he only needs to take Tribestan when he comes off of the SUS500/Havoc. I read up on this and it says it increases LH and will normalize estrogen levels, etc -

I searched your forum and didn’t really find much on it-

what do you guys say about this?


#5

[quote] Brook wrote:
Isn’t this the same thread we just answered? Isn’t your reply cut and pasted WC? You know, the one where “you say SERM, i say Caber?”

Havoc is a progestin. I know that much… in the last thread the info wasn’t conflicting IMO - it was:

Drop the PH’s - the following day, use a SERM and some Caber, or if Caber is too expensive ($6 per 2mg) then use Selegiline ($2 per 50mg) instead.

Or am i mistaken?[/quote]

She actually made an older thread and wanted to repost it with more complete info as the older thread went way off topic.

I PM-ed her previously about the carber, selegiline and a link to the other thread we were discussing a similar issue in (progestin based PH), where BBB posted the link to the selegiline supplier.

I was simply covering proper PCT protocol in my last post, as her original thoughts of 3 weeks isnt standard.

But yes I agree, prolactin should be managed with these. However it is somewhat un-proven if they actually elevate prolactin significantly.

We assume they would, but we need to see someone’s blood work to be sure.

If we can get one of the two ladies to post it that would be dandy.


#6

Tribulus/tribestan/ whatever the name they use.

Is an herbal “test booster” although it has not been shown to actually increase LH in anyway, it does increase libido through a seperate method of action I believe it blocks some receptor causing overcompensation, it does NOT block estrogen in anyway.

Trib makes your hornier and thats about it, useful for what it is, but certainly not appropriate for PCT. Its basically the original “Viagra”

That is a common newbie mistake that usually ends in a very ugly manner.

He will need tamoxifen at the very least, that is a given, and selegiline or caber if his prolactin is elevated.

If there is anyway he can get some full blood work done, and you can post the numbers, we can diagnose it 100% positively.

He will need tamoxifen the day he comes off, but we need to see blood work to say if he needs anything else.

The selegiline is cheap, and taking it even if he isnt having prolactin problems will have no real negative effects, it may be prudent to order some now incase his blood work comes back with elevated prolactin levels.


#7

Thanks for defending me, Westclock :wink:

Well, he is not ordering the Tribestan, but he isn’t ordering the tamoxifen either. And he doesn’t want any blood work done (avoid docs at all costs, always).

He ordered Novadex XT, again by recommendation of another bodybuilder.

I appreciate the education you have given me/us. If you don’t mind, let me know what symptoms/side effects I may look for since this isn’t the best choice (I’m assuming). I still have the info you gave me regarding if he did nothing as a PCT, let me know if that is what applies-
thanks-


#8

[quote]btbllady wrote:

He ordered Novadex XT, again by recommendation of another bodybuilder.

[/quote]

novAdex and noLvadex (tamoxifen citrate) are two totally different things.


#9

Buying ‘Nolvedex XT’ instead of the pharmaceutical drugs many many posters recommended (Tamoxifen, Cabergoline, Segelinine and Arimidex) - is a big mistake - he may as well do nothing. You can’t buy the DRUGS you need at GNC.

It is pretty useless unless used as a mild supplement for a training/ergogenic boost.

BTW… you didn’t need ‘sticking up for’ - i just think that everything you needed to know was covered in your previous thread - in depth, and your boyfriend (who cannot even take a few seconds to post himself) still decided to ignore the lot and buy something from a supplement store. People offered sources (this is very rare), advice and help with not a single flame - partially because you are female no doubt, but mostly it was due to the fact you seemed to have done research and genuinely needed help.

Sure, i understand the thinking that if one gets something from a supplement store, then surely something from the same store will suffice to ‘come off’ the problematic supplement… however, sadly it is an error that has wasted time and money.

Good luck, laters.


#10

[quote] Brook wrote:
Buying ‘Nolvedex XT’ instead of the pharmaceutical drugs many many posters recommended (Tamoxifen, Cabergoline, Segelinine and Arimidex) - is a big mistake - he may as well do nothing. You can’t buy the DRUGS you need at GNC.

It is pretty useless unless used as a mild supplement for a training/ergogenic boost.

BTW… you didn’t need ‘sticking up for’ - i just think that everything you needed to know was covered in your previous thread - in depth, and your boyfriend (who cannot even take a few seconds to post himself) still decided to ignore the lot and buy something from a supplement store. People offered sources (this is very rare), advice and help with not a single flame - partially because you are female no doubt, but mostly it was due to the fact you seemed to have done research and genuinely needed help.

Sure, i understand the thinking that if one gets something from a supplement store, then surely something from the same store will suffice to ‘come off’ the problematic supplement… however, sadly it is an error that has wasted time and money.

“…Drop the PH’s - the following day, use a SERM and some Caber, or if Caber is too expensive ($6 per 2mg) then use Selegiline ($2 per 50mg) instead…”

“…Alldaychemist.com…”

Good luck, laters.[/quote]

This is actually a different girl than the other thread.

We have two similar cases at the same time, both progestin based, one is the wife, the other girl is only a girlfriend.

This one is the wife.

As was said, Nolvadex XT is crap, its marketed to sound like the real drug, it is not.

He will need tamoxifen citrate, brand name nolvadex.

This is a perscription breast cancer drug, you can not buy it at a supplement shop.

Use the site provided, Alldaychemist.com

You can find nolvadex, and selegiline both pretty cheaply.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/common_generic/Tamoxifen.html

This ^^^^ is tamoxifen, he will need about 900mg total.

enough for 14 days at 40mg per day, and 14 days of 20mg per day.

Theres no reason to fear bloodwork, the product he was taking was 100% legal.

It is not a banned substance, and the doctor doesnt need to do anything but take a little blood anyways.

I regularly have full blood work done with large amounts of illegal steroids in my system, its not a problem.

I would simply buy the selegiline too while your at it if hes refusing to get blood work, its pretty cheap.


#11

Westclock, correct me if i am wrong

10 pills tamoxifen @ 20mg per pill is $2.33 on alldaychemistry.com
so… in total: 1000mg approx. would be $11.65

This seems relatively inexpensive to me… Is it because its generic or am i missing something else?


#12

I see - fair enough :wink: